Dr. Root became Catholic?

[Steven Tibbetts]

Harvey, that would be a pleasant thought, to be sure. Unfortunately, I'm not noticing many graduates of the ELCA seminaries in the past five-ten years leading any sort of charge against the various theological errors in the ELCA. Do you? Maybe I've just missed it, but this is a pretty clear indication there is not a "pocket of resistance" at various ELCA seminaries working their influence on future generations of ELCA pastors.

Had you been at or watching the proceedings of last summer's ELCA Churchwide Assembly, you would not portray our newer pastors with such a negative broad brush.

Pax, Steven+

[Christopher Miller]

*newer pastor who raises his hand as a dissenter, being 31 and all, thank you very much*

[Charlesu]

Here is another dissenter. While in Seminary one has to be somewhat cautious when speaking out, repercussions can be unpleasant.

[frluther1517]

Here is another dissenter. While in Seminary one has to be somewhat cautious when speaking out, repercussions can be unpleasant.

Another young pastor dissenter (29....for another couple of weeks) and yes Carlesu they can be. 

[GoCubsGo]

Harvey, that would be a pleasant thought, to be sure. Unfortunately, I'm not noticing many graduates of the ELCA seminaries in the past five-ten years leading any sort of charge against the various theological errors in the ELCA. Do you? Maybe I've just missed it, ...

Yes, Paul yoiu have missed it.  (A 39 year old dissenter who is theologically orthodox--maybe not LCMS confessionally orthodox but Lutheran/confessionally orthodox IMO.)

[jpetty]

I question this repercussion business.  Please specify exactly what "repercussions" you would anticipate.

A classmate rolling his eyes at you doesn't count.

[George Erdner]

Harvey, that would be a pleasant thought, to be sure. Unfortunately, I'm not noticing many graduates of the ELCA seminaries in the past five-ten years leading any sort of charge against the various theological errors in the ELCA. Do you? Maybe I've just missed it, ...

The question needs to be asked, "What percentage of the pastors who graduated from ELCA seminaries between 2000 and 2005 have to be 'leading any sort of charge against the various theological errors in the ELCA' to be considered "many"? That is not to say that at least four pastors aren't indeed standing up for theological orthodoxy and faithfulness to the Scripture. No one should construe anything in this post as being negative towards those few recent ELCA seminary graduates. But if such pastors are few and far between, then the basic premise that recent graduates of ELCA seminaries are not likely to be theologically orthodox is not disproven.

I question this repercussion business.  Please specify exactly what "repercussions" you would anticipate.

A classmate rolling his eyes at you doesn't count.

Does being blackballed so that you never get a first call count as a "repercussion"? Does having the discernment committees who review you after graduation decide you aren't really called to the ministry and rejecting you count as a "repercussion"?

[DCharlton]

I question this repercussion business.  Please specify exactly what "repercussions" you would anticipate.

A classmate rolling his eyes at you doesn't count.

In order of frequency:

1.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being shouted down by classmates.
2.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being told, "You're a white male.  You have not right to an opinion."
3.  Being publicly rebuked by a professor for a dissenting opinion.
4.  Social ostracism.
5.  Open hostility.

Less common but not unheard of:

1.  Being verbally abused by a professor.
2.  Having a professor threaten to argue against your ordination.

Argue, if you will, that if the tables were turned, so called "traditionalists" would do the same.  Just don't call it respecting bound conscience.

[Brian Stoffregen]

I question this repercussion business.  Please specify exactly what "repercussions" you would anticipate.

A classmate rolling his eyes at you doesn't count.

In order of frequency:

1.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being shouted down by classmates.
2.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being told, "You're a white male.  You have not right to an opinion."
3.  Being publicly rebuked by a professor for a dissenting opinion.
4.  Social ostracism.
5.  Open hostility.

Less common but not unheard of:

1.  Being verbally abused by a professor.
2.  Having a professor threaten to argue against your ordination.

Argue, if you will, that if the tables were turned, so called "traditionalists" would do the same.  Just don't call it being tolerated and valued for your contribution.

Have these happened, or just anticipation of them happening?

[DCharlton]

I question this repercussion business.  Please specify exactly what "repercussions" you would anticipate.

A classmate rolling his eyes at you doesn't count.

In order of frequency:

1.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being shouted down by classmates.
2.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being told, "You're a white male.  You have not right to an opinion."
3.  Being publicly rebuked by a professor for a dissenting opinion.
4.  Social ostracism.
5.  Open hostility.

Less common but not unheard of:

1.  Being verbally abused by a professor.
2.  Having a professor threaten to argue against your ordination.

Argue, if you will, that if the tables were turned, so called "traditionalists" would do the same.  Just don't call it being tolerated and valued for your contribution.

Have these happened, or just anticipation of them happening?

I have witnessed every one except the last two.  In those cases, I heard it from multiple sources, including those who were upset by it and those who thought it was funny.  "Did you hear what professor __________ said to ________ today?  It was a riot!  That bastard had it coming."

Again, you can argue that it would be no different if you or John were to attend an LCMS seminary today.  Just don't give me any hogwash about how open and tolerant ELCA seminaries are.

[Evangel]

I question this repercussion business.  Please specify exactly what "repercussions" you would anticipate.

A classmate rolling his eyes at you doesn't count.

In order of frequency:

1.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being shouted down by classmates.
2.  Never being able to finish a sentence without being told, "You're a white male.  You have not right to an opinion."
3.  Being publicly rebuked by a professor for a dissenting opinion.
4.  Social ostracism.
5.  Open hostility.

Less common but not unheard of:

1.  Being verbally abused by a professor.
2.  Having a professor threaten to argue against your ordination.

Argue, if you will, that if the tables were turned, so called "traditionalists" would do the same.  Just don't call it being tolerated and valued for your contribution.

Have these happened, or just anticipation of them happening?

You're kidding right?  My brother was a Wartburg MDiv student in the early 90's and told of himself and some of his traditionalist classmates being subjected to this stuff back then.  It got so bad he withdrew from the MDiv program and switched to an MA in Theology (he graduated in '92) ... once that happened he was no longer abused.

[DCharlton]

You're right Mark.  Most of the hostility dies down by the end of the first year, as traditionalists either leave the seminary, get with the program, or learn to keep a low profile.

[Christopher Miller]

Isn't it a shame that you have to "get through" seminary instead of enjoying being where you are?

That's why there needs to be alternatives. LCMS seminaries I worry about, merely because CORE students might (repeat: might) get the same treatment because they favor WO. That's why all the construction (LCMC, CORE, NALC, etc.) is happening right now, because we need some legs to stand on.

[ptmccain]

I doubt any CORE student would go through a LCMS seminary program for three years and come out still thinking that the ordination of women is a Biblical or Confessional concept.

[Virgil]

Maybe I went to seminary too long ago. However, at Luther Northwestern in the 80s you could count on the likes of Nestingen, Forde, Sundberg, Juel, Harrisville, Grindal, Tostengard, and I am forgetting a few I am sure--as orthodox. There were a few professors singing kumbaya and manning the ramparts, but most faculty thought of these as curiosities to be tolerated, the butt of gentle jokes and certainly no threat to received Lutheranism.

90% of the student body was rabidly anti-Reagan, as was I, but we were callow back then. I don't recall any shouting down by fellow students although the handful of political conservatives weren't frequently engaged in debate. I'd wager most of my classmates are in the revisionist camp now, but the spirit of the place was great. Best seminary years a guy could have. So yes, Christopher, I did enjoy my time there. Immensely.