Author Topic: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies  (Read 4685 times)

Daniel L. Gard

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2010, 11:50:09 AM »
Speaking only for Fort Wayne (though I believe that the same is true at Saint Louis), women are fully integrated in almost all courses with men. Much of the M.A. degree program overlaps with the M.Div. As a result, I will have both men and women in my Pent I, Major Prophets and even Pastoral Counseling classes this Fall. This is a very different dynamic than a few years ago but I think a healthy one. Incidently, some of my best students are the women.

To add to Paul's comment, the new Lutheran Witness editor is Adriane Dorr, who received her M.A. from CTSFW last year. This is an amazing young woman with tremendous skills and a sharp theological mind. She is also a strongly confessional Lutheran who understands and supports our Synod's theology.

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2010, 01:57:22 PM »
I have a hunch that a number of the LCMS folks here who talk a "good game" about women's service in the Church, actually have very little meaningful contact with well educated, theologically trained, M.A. level type women, in the terms of a close, working relationship as peers and colleagues. I find that rather, well, amusing, actually.


Timotheus Verinus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
    • View Profile
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2010, 02:30:17 PM »
Speaking only for Fort Wayne (though I believe that the same is true at Saint Louis), women are fully integrated in almost all courses with men. Much of the M.A. degree program overlaps with the M.Div. As a result, I will have both men and women in my Pent I, Major Prophets and even Pastoral Counseling classes this Fall. This is a very different dynamic than a few years ago but I think a healthy one. Incidently, some of my best students are the women.

To add to Paul's comment, the new Lutheran Witness editor is Adriane Dorr, who received her M.A. from CTSFW last year. This is an amazing young woman with tremendous skills and a sharp theological mind. She is also a strongly confessional Lutheran who understands and supports our Synod's theology.

Thank you Chaplain Gard. I was hoping you would respond. Your reply provides some insights that those in the ELCA/LCMC/NALC may not appreciate.

First, the mistaken thought that women are diminished or limited in Confessional bodies, in capability or training. That simply is not true. My wife along with Systematics and OT and Pastoral Care, also took two Homietics and two Liturgy classes. (are those to be for MDiv only?) These have stood her very well in her work in Women's Prison's even where a formal "DS" setting is not present. She was not prohibited in LCMS nor AALC. The young LCMS deaconess (MAR) down the road was known for her brilliant classroom work at St. Louis a few years back. All these talents are appreciated. While I agree with everyone's opinion of Erma's message at the recent Core convocation, I have heard the same, from LCMS trained women appreciated by those they spoke to. My wife's presentation to the AALC convention met our simple criteria... "they laughed in Joy, they cried in repentence, they heard about Jesus," and powerfully so. The confessional Lutheran bodies do not say that women are not as capable, and often on occasion and circumstance more so, than many men at that level. That is not the confessional argument.

The second point running through the thread is whether, if LCMC/NALC women were allowed into MAR etc. classes at FtW and SL, with some sort of passive knowledge that this would be a part of an MDiv program, what is it they would learn there? We already have examples of folks like Sandra who in study at ELCA schools became aware of a different understanding of God's Word, that led her to decline the path she was on. Your example of Dcs Dorr, Paul's examples, and the two I bring above, indicate that they will be influenced to confessional teachings on WO, and not come out with a passion - "to be a pastor." That might be something LCMC/NALC would want to think about.

Of course, my discussions on things like TCT and buzz phrases like "order of creation" in LCMS, are still part of the conversation, but I wouldn't take those to mean that what Chaplain Gard and others might teach at the LCMS sems are ever going to come from the same world view, same theological perspective, as those that have touched LCMC/NALC. They self evidently are not. And despite rumors, the women in training there are not compelled to shut up, listen, and take notes. They engage. As above those professors encourage, in patient spirit, discussing and struggling through those questions. The answers they arrive at mirror the experiences Scott made note of.

The question may not be, "Will LCMS let us?" but "Do you really want to send them there?" because they are going to teach from their hermeneutic. And it is powerfully compelling, and not an obsolete conservatism. The AALC answered, "yes,. we 'really,' want to send our people there," but then we only ordain men as pastors. That's a result we expect.

TV

PS. For Paul - A friendly barb in reply  ;D...
I have a hunch that a number of the LCMS folks here ...  have very little meaningful contact with .. M.A. level type women, in the terms of a close, working relationship ... I find that rather, well, amusing, actually.
And some who work in Synodical agencies and seminaries, do not have close working relationships and shining witness with those women at the congregation, who toil in small church basements, prison cells, hospital rooms, and the homes of simple pew sitters in "Nowhere Wilderness North Dakota." What is seen in both places is the same, none the less, even if the game they talk is only about, the one deaconess at their church. Don't make enemies of your allies.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 03:00:34 PM by TVerinus »
TAALC Pastor

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13346
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2010, 03:04:24 PM »
Hmmm.  Our women staff outnumber the men at the Atlantic District.  I'll let them know you don't think I have meaningful contact with educated women.  They'll get back to you.  Several of our direct staff have Master's degrees, all have Bachelor's degrees.  Our adjunct female leaders at the Counseling Center we sponsor or our educational consortium have earned doctorates.  The training grounds in religion or education out here would include Hunter College (teachers), St. John's University, Columbia, Fordham, NYU, Yale/Harvard, etc.  A bundle of our men have gotten their earned Th/Ph.D's from Fordham recently - a great theological education.  My certificate doctorate (D.Min) is from New York Theological Seminary. This being the Financial Capitol of the World, there are more MBAs per square inch than the rest of the planet, and women often advise us in the area of finance and investment.

I'm not sure what floats your particular boat, Paul, with the sardonic thing you invariably do.  Speaking for one district, and I would think way more than one, when it comes to eduated women, women in ministry positions in districts, and minority women in leadership roles in parishes and wider church activities you're off in a world of your own invention, not the one in which we live.   Our graduate of the Ft. Wayne Deaconess program will be installed in the Bronx in September.  That's one we should podcast.

The point attempting to be made is that the NALC and other forming bodies could have their seminarians train at our schools, males in M.Div., women in other Master's programs, without violating what already exists.  I'll pose that one to the powers that be in a couple of weeks.

Dave Benke




Daniel L. Gard

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2010, 03:13:44 PM »
TV,

One point of clarification. Adriane is not a Deaconess. She has chosen to serve the Church as a laywoman with theological credentials.

President Benke,

The young woman who you will install is another example of a consecrated servant of the Church with a sharp mind and great talent. May the Lord bless her and all that she does in His Name! Please give her my best.

I will very interested in the answer that you get from "the powers that be".
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 04:09:56 PM by Daniel L. Gard »

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2010, 03:20:41 PM »
Dave, thanks for the low-down on the folks in your area.

How many of your women staff members are rostered LCMS church workers with Master's in theology degrees from either of our two seminaries? I'm jus asking, don't take it as a challenge, I'm sincerely curious.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13346
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2010, 09:26:38 PM »
 We have women at our office site with terminal degrees in theology teaching and involved on district committees, as well as women on our various boards and committees with theological training, one of whom has that advanced degree.  And we have had on staff women with advanced degrees in education with a minor in theology.  However, I'm not sure if that passes your litmus test for "close working relationship as peers and colleagues" since your need is for LCMS rostered workers plus our Missouri seminaries as the location of the terminal degrees. 

I don't know what you're driving at with "take it as a challenge."  What happened is that you made a sardonic comment, it's was answered with statements of fact about an enormous range of talented lay people,men and women who labor on my staff and in our district, and your next question now brings in my taking it as a challenge.   


Dave Benke

Cnehring

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2010, 09:35:03 PM »

ILT has something like a dozen people in an MDiv program that has just completed its first year. 

According to Dr. Bielfeldt, there will be around 30 enrolled this year. I don't know if that is only MDiv or all the courses, but they have continued to add around 10 students each year.

Also, ILT is beginning a MTh. program this fall (I am enrolled in that), so they are starting to think ahead for more advanced degrees

passerby

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2010, 10:08:11 PM »

ILT has something like a dozen people in an MDiv program that has just completed its first year. 

According to Dr. Bielfeldt, there will be around 30 enrolled this year. I don't know if that is only MDiv or all the courses, but they have continued to add around 10 students each year.

Also, ILT is beginning a MTh. program this fall (I am enrolled in that), so they are starting to think ahead for more advanced degrees


I'd stilll want to consider Fuller Seminary, a moderate evangelical institution that I think would be open to a Lutheran House of Studies, and North Park Seminary, a Covenant institution that is quite innovative and may also make a provision. Both of these options may be temporary

Matt Staneck

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3337
  • Shabbat Shalom! Matthew 11:28-30, 12:8
    • View Profile
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2010, 10:16:35 PM »
Dr. B, someone you can tally up would be your own DCE Intern...oh, except that she completed masters level work but is not receiving a masters...scratch off the tally.  But maybe a half a tally since she's synod educated/trained?

M. Staneck
Matt Staneck, Pastor
St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church
Queens, NY

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2010, 07:43:09 AM »
I don't know what you're driving at with "take it as a challenge." 

Because you chose to describe my initial inquiry as being "sardonic."

When you refer to your "district office site" I think you might be referring to Concordia Bronxville, where, if I might shamelessly make a plug, there has been established another fine Concordia Publishing House bookstore!!

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10623
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2010, 09:39:26 AM »
I'd stilll want to consider Fuller Seminary, a moderate evangelical institution that I think would be open to a Lutheran House of Studies, and North Park Seminary, a Covenant institution that is quite innovative and may also make a provision. Both of these options may be temporary

As an adjunct prof at Fuller, I'd second that, and I think there would be lots of benefit. The problem if geography; Fuller is pretty far removed from the center of Lutheran gravity.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2010, 11:27:10 PM »
Pastor Tibbetts,...


Those in the ELCA who have been part of reform/renewal efforts, some groups (such as WordAlone and others affiliated with Lutheran CORE) engaging in ELCA church politics, others (such as the STS) eschewing it, have almost uniformly held that assisting/guiding/mentoring/engaging seminarians is a most vital task.  This attitude is only increased in those who have departed the ELCA for newer churches.

We all could do better.  This sort of thing does not always lend itself well to formal organization; compare/contrast the vision of the ELCA Candidacy process with most of our actual experiences with our Candidacy Committees.  

In my case, a key part of what has made me the Lutheran pastor and theologian I am today is that 5-10 copies of The Bride of Christ, Lutheran Forum, and Forum Letter showed up next to our mailboxes at PLTS every time they were published and I picked them up.

About a decade ago I attended  a conference put on by Touchstone and, lo and behold, a couple of despairing-of-the-ELCA Gettysburg seminarians had shown up.  We'd never met before, but the commonality of reading Touchstone and attending one of its conferences enabled a tentative introduction that led to a heart-to-heart chat.  How influential that half-hour was I don't know, but I am pleased to point to a couple of younger ELCA pastors who have been a blessing to their parishes and the STS.

Clearly such haphazard an approach isn't very efficient or all that effective in reforming our Lutheran churches.  Other pastors associated with the STS or Lutheran CORE can tell of much more intentional encouragement and mentoring, especially if they are near a seminary or supervise interns.  Some of these connections are the result of formal efforts by groups, and sometimes include some pretty hands-on mentoring and guidance.  

On the other hand, we can point to those who lose heart along the way, or never discover the available companionship, or get shipped out, or never enter in the first place.  Again, orthodox Lutherans must do much, much better.  But remember the Lord does not abandon his church, even in the darkest or driest of times.

Thanks for you efforts, Clyde.  Know that you are not alone.

Pax, Steven+
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:30:53 PM by Richard Johnson »
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

pr dtp

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2010, 01:26:29 AM »
I'd stilll want to consider Fuller Seminary, a moderate evangelical institution that I think would be open to a Lutheran House of Studies, and North Park Seminary, a Covenant institution that is quite innovative and may also make a provision. Both of these options may be temporary

As an adjunct prof at Fuller, I'd second that, and I think there would be lots of benefit. The problem if geography; Fuller is pretty far removed from the center of Lutheran gravity.


I would think the center of Lutheran Gravity is now Kenya/Ethiopia - so all US sems are pretty far

Scott6

  • Guest
Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2010, 08:17:17 AM »
I would think the center of Lutheran Gravity is now Kenya/Ethiopia - so all US sems are pretty far

Say Tanzania/Ethiopia, and you're probably closer.  The Lutheran church in Kenya is still pretty small -- lots more Anglicans, Roman Catholics and independent churches.