Author Topic: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies  (Read 4748 times)

Evangel

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2010, 09:32:59 PM »
...
A couple of years ago there were some representatives of Concordia Lutheran Theological Seminary, St. Catharines at an LCMC event pitching their seminary to potential LCMC seminarians.

What is the relationship between the two US Concordia's and St. Catharines?  Anything beyond the sharing of the name Concordia?
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
Zion Lutheran Church, LCMC
Priddy, TX
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ACXXIII, "Your majesty will graciously take into account the fact that, in these last times of which the Scriptures prophesy, the world is growing worse and men are becoming weaker and more infirm."

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2010, 09:35:59 PM »
But Daniel could you allow our women seminarians?  Harvey Mozolak

Again, I am only speculating and speak for no one but myself. Any official reaction would have to come from those charged with leading the seminaries.

Here is my guess. If other hurdles could be overcome, men might be admitted into the M.Div. I do not see either seminary admitting women to the M.Div. or training future women pastors in other degree programs. To do so would be contrary to what we as a Synod believe, teach and confess. Nor would there be any compromise in our Synodís positions on other issues like Eucharistic practice or higher critical studies of the Bible.

LutherMan

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2010, 09:40:16 PM »
...
A couple of years ago there were some representatives of Concordia Lutheran Theological Seminary, St. Catharines at an LCMC event pitching their seminary to potential LCMC seminarians.

What is the relationship between the two US Concordia's and St. Catharines?  Anything beyond the sharing of the name Concordia?
The two Concordia Sem's in Canada used to be LCMS sems until 1988.  Now, they are in fellowship with us via the Lutheran Church-Canada. (which used to be a district)  Same doctrine, for the most part, except Canada seems to be a tad more confessional.

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2010, 09:41:43 PM »
...
A couple of years ago there were some representatives of Concordia Lutheran Theological Seminary, St. Catharines at an LCMC event pitching their seminary to potential LCMC seminarians.

What is the relationship between the two US Concordia's and St. Catharines?  Anything beyond the sharing of the name Concordia?

Concordia Edmonton and Concordia St. Catherines are the seminaries of the Lutheran Church - Canada, the sister Synod of the LCMS. The LCC was once part of the LCMS but formed a national Synod some years ago. We share a common heritage and theological position. Since we are in fellowship, our pastors can serve in each others parishes and transfer betweren the two Synods and parishoners are welcomed at the altars of either Synod.

St Catherines was founded by Concordia Theological Seminary - Fort Wayne through the efforts of Dr. Robert Preus and Canadian leaders.

Weedon

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2010, 09:46:20 PM »
AND St. Catharines boasts the fabulous Dr. John R. Stephenson on its faculty.  An amazing scholar and writer!

Evangel

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2010, 09:49:48 PM »
OK, just sayin' ... St Catharines was at an LCMC event a couple of years back offering their services for LCMC seminarians ... I have no idea if there are any who went that way.
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
Zion Lutheran Church, LCMC
Priddy, TX
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ACXXIII, "Your majesty will graciously take into account the fact that, in these last times of which the Scriptures prophesy, the world is growing worse and men are becoming weaker and more infirm."

LutherMan

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2010, 09:51:36 PM »
We collided again in answering, Dr. Gard.  I like being on the same page with you and Weedon. :)   Walking together and all that. :)

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2010, 09:53:34 PM »
We collided again in answering, Dr. Gard.  I like being on the same page with you and Weedon. :)   Walking together and all that. :)

i must be doing something right!

Erma S. Wolf

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2010, 10:21:14 PM »
    I have hesitated to enter into this discussion, as I will not be part of the NALC and am not in any kind of position to speak for what that body will or will not approve regarding appropriate education and candidacy procedures for those seeking to serve as pastors in that church.  However, since I am still the co-chair of the Lutheran CORE working group on Theological Education, and have discussed with others the needs of those both remaining in the ELCA and those who will be in the NALC and who are/will be candidates for the ordained ministry, I will speak up in a limited way.

   In looking at what is currently available in the way of seminary education for Lutherans in the United States (and to a limited extent in Canada), the main thought right now is to try and determine which, among all of the possibilities out there, would best serve those who after all want to serve in Lutheran parishes, especially those who view themselves as being somewhat "moderate" and orthodox, confessional, and traditional.  While the NALC will not be looking to establish a "bricks and mortar" seminary, there is concern for how to gather people together in some physical form or fashion (and not just by the internet) to establish an ethos that reflects the kind of church the NALC plans to be.  And while those planning to serve in the ELCA will be under the supervision of the ELCA candidacy committees in the synods, Lutheran CORE hopes to be a supportive link to those who seek it, in order to be able to stay in the ELCA even though holding one of the, shall we say, "less popular" of the positions regarding PALMSGRs among the clergy and the blessing of such relationships. 

    Seminary education at non-ELCA seminaries has been allowed in the ELCA since its beginning, and it is anticipated that the NALC will have to work with candidates at various seminaries, some perhaps of the ELCA, others still Lutheran but non-ELCA, and still other schools which are non-Lutheran.  While the fine seminaries of the LC/MS have come up as possibilities for such training, it has been recognized by all on the L-CORE working group that this is not at the present time available for those who are not candidates for ministry in the Missouri Synod.  And there have been some questions raised that the training at a Missouri Synod school would be so geared to the policies and polity of the LC/MS that it would be of questionable workability for anyone heading to ordination in another Lutheran body.  It is also recognized that since the NALC plans to have women ordained to the office of ordained ministry as well as men, that Missouri Synod seminaries will not work for them.  Obviously, for women remaining in the ELCA, attending LC/MS seminaries in order to obtain the M.Div. degree would be a non-starter. 

     I bring this up here because I don't want anyone to get the idea that either Lutheran CORE or the NALC have any plans to try to "convince" the Missouri Synod that they should change their policies (or theology) in order to allow confessional women candidates for the ministry to attend those schools in the Master of Divinity track.  I think it is important to respect the deeply held beliefs of the Missouri Synod on this matter, including this church body's teaching on how Scripture is to be understood on this matter.  While we may disagree with this understanding, it is possible to have mutual respect and seek other ways in which the Missouri Synod might be able to assist other confessional traditional Lutherans in other church bodies.   

 

SmithL

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 11:13:40 AM »
As ELCA splits, S.D. seminary may benefit

Argus Leader: http://www.argusleader.com/article/20100819/NEWS/8190323/1001

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2010, 02:09:49 AM »
Sprung up on another thread but seems beter here.

But if such pastors are few and far between, then the basic premise that recent graduates of ELCA seminaries are not likely to be theologically orthodox is not disproven.


But that was not the basic premise I rebutted.  The premise to which I objected, and to which I will continue to object is that ELCA congregations can have no reasonable hope that they will receive confessionally orthodox graduates from their seminaries.  That simply is not so.  I continue to meet recent graduates from ELCA seminaries who are confessionally orthodox, including at last year's CWA, at Retreats of the Society of the Holy Trinity, and (most recently) at this week's conference and convocations in Columbus.

spt+

OK, if you're going to insist on picking nits, what percentage of ELCA Seminary graduates must be confessionally orthodox for a congregation to have a "reasonable" hope that any recent graduate of an ELCA seminary sent to them by their bishop's office for consideration in order for it to be "reasonable"? Is having only 1 out of every 10 "reasonable", or would 4 out of 5 be "reasonable"? If you insist on picking nits about what is "reasonable", then it is only reasonable that you articulate more specifically what you mean by "reasonable".

I said "not likely", which I interpret as meaning that less than half of the graduates of ELCA seminaries can be expected to be "confessionally orthodox".

Some thoughts on this to the point of the thread to follow.

TV
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2010, 02:29:01 AM »
Pastor Tibbetts,

As we (I in joint ministries and AALC in conversations) engage ELCA sem garduates, liberal and conservative, there are some stark differences in what comes from conservative LCMS sems, ALTS, (and I presume WELS and AFLC etc.) in a framework sense. The "buzz words and phrases" used by those from ELCA sems are strange and alien phrases .... even those who I consider to be conservative partners in the faith. George's question is not totally out of line.

My experience is with teachers from St. Louis and Ft Wayne sources, and Fort Wayne instructors prior to transferring to the AALC. Afterwards with ALTS, I have also been exposed to some non-LCMS teachings from texts by those  like Forde and Braaten (ex: Principles of Lutheran Theology et al) My contemporary friends have been on campus and distance ed from places like St. Louis in LCMS and Gettysburg in Core.

There really is a cultural rift in my opinion. That is something the new bodies will need to address at some level. Simply going to ELCA (or other denom) sems without a well thought out mentor process to this point, will be very difficult if possible at all. I would think the remaining orthodox professors need to be gathered in some way, even it is only among those retired.

In the AALC for those transferring, we strongly encourage a few classes from ALTS on this point doctrinally and also an American Lutheran History perspective. I would think LCMC and NALC need to consider such things. Some recognition of the war zone from which you come, needs to be admitted, no? ???

FWIW,
TV
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 02:41:44 AM by TVerinus »
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2010, 02:56:17 AM »
From Dr Root thread, as more applicable here?

I doubt any CORE student would go through a LCMS seminary program for three years and come out still thinking that the ordination of women is a Biblical or Confessional concept.

BUT --
it's been my experience that most LCMS pastors, faculty, and students would make their point by respectful interaction and not by ridicule, shaming, bullying, or any of the other coercive tactics mentioned above.
When I've been in venues (and I go to a number of them) with LCMS pastors, they don't go out of their way to find out what points of theology as I confess it may be weak, or, in their view, heretical.  I am aware of some of the tactics that traditionalist folks at Luther or Wartburg have had to endure, and I must say I've not seen or experienced anything close to that at St. Louis or Ft. Wayne about any issue, let alone women's ordination. 
Lou

My experience is that when I went to seminary, I believed in women's ordination, having recently come from Luther and the hermeneutic in use there.  What I found was that over an extended period of study in hermeneutics and theology on topics that were not directly related to WO in any way, I discovered that I could not hold to certain teachings consistently while holding to WO.  This realization came as I began to study about the so-called "New Perspective" on Paul and discovered heremeneutical methods that would both authorize WO and call into question the teaching of justification.  It was a watershed for me, and I realized that as much as I prized (note agency and the emphasis upon what I liked) WO, I could no longer hold it.

And no, there was never any type of inquisition or questioning to ferret out secret WO supporters but rather the kind, patient and consistent (and fun!) teaching of the faith as it has been handed down.  That's how it should be.

In my distance ed classes with the Ft Wayne Profs, I would agree with their approach as being kind, patient, and consistent, willing to hear without "tactics," and address things not part of the "party line." These "tactics to be endured" are not something I would expect from LCMS sems. They genuinely believe what they teach, and trust that their teaching of it will stand on simple proclamation of the Word. If you start with the Word ha the power, you act like you trust that, and not clever theories.

TV
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Dave Benke

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2010, 08:08:14 AM »
Regarding the admission of women to the M.Div. program at Missouri seminaries - there are women at our seminaries now in Master's and Doctoral programs.  I'm sure some to many of the courses are intertwined with the M.Div. courses, aren't they?  Are the students segregated by gender?  Are the women told they can't listen to parts of the lecture, or forbidden from reading in class?  I wouldn't think so on any account.

I note with paternal pride the latest issue of the Concordia Journal.  It's all about the Creation/First Article, with the featured articles by Chuck Arand.  His initial assignment in this regard came through a synodical resolution for the Missouri CTCR to study creation and environment.  My congregation in Brooklyn submitted that resolution, the only resolution on the topic.  Anyway, the final article is co-authored by Chuck and Beth Hoeltke, whose Ph.D. studies there at the seminary are listed as "Theology of Creation Ethics."  My hunch is she's taken a bunch of systematics courses, maybe even snuck in some exegetics and history.

So, since there are female advanced degree participants at both seminaries, why could not a Master's degree be obtained by the women from these new bodies from our seminaries? 

Dave Benke

ptmccain

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Re: Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2010, 09:22:14 AM »
Dave, women can, and do, obtain Masters degrees from both of our seminaries. They are Masters of Arts in Religion. M.Div. degrees are reserved for men preparing for the Office, since the M.Div. degree has requirements that are specific to the pastoral ministry: preaching, doing liturgy, etc. etc. etc.

My good friend and colleague at Concordia Publishing House has her B.A. in theology from Concordia River Forest, Biblical language major, and her M.A.R. from CTS Fort Wayne, Deaconess Pamela Nielsen, wonder-working curriculum editor, etc. And we have a couple other ladies on staff who have their earned M.A.R. from Concordia Seminary, St. Louis.

How many of your district staff members are women with Masters degrees from either of our seminaries?

 ;)