Contraception

[Team Hesse]

You mean large populations like Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas, Las Vegas and San Jose?
I think it is more accurate to say that water is more expensive in the West, and certainly more political. Las Vegas has had explosive population growth in a very dry place and yet, somehow, water still comes out of every tap in town. I know water management issues are a big deal in the West but I don't think it has constrained growth in any meaningful way. Otherwise, how do you explain Las Vegas?

To sustain high populations in the west, scarce water must be diverted from other uses. Las Vegas? Hoover Dam, of course. The Colorado is so dammed that Mexico gets only a trickle from that once mighty river. The tradeoff is that the Grand Canyon ecosystem is forever changed. Very little of the Rio Grande water that flows from Colorado into New Mexico makes it into Texas because of irrigation in New Mexico. During drought years, the Rio Grande sometimes disappears before it gets to the Gulf.  If we have a major drought like the 13th century (as I recollect) that drove the Anasazi (Ancestral Puebloans) out of their homes, and you'll see major upheaval out west.  Water is more expensive because it is scarce; like any other resource, shortages trigger higher prices and surpluses trigger lower prices.
Now I'm off to school to teach my Economics classes. Though it seems like a digression, population distribution does play into this debate in general.
Kurt

An old cliche, common in my profession, "In the West, water IS wealth."

Lou

[Brian Stoffregen]

An old cliche, common in my profession, "In the West, water IS wealth."

We live at the border where the Colorado enters Mexico. From my lay perspective, it looks like we have more water in our irrigation canals than in the Colorado River. Without water, this would be a lifeless desert. We average about 3" of rain a year.

[Erma S. Wolf]

An old cliche, common in my profession, "In the West, water IS wealth."

We live at the border where the Colorado enters Mexico. From my lay perspective, it looks like we have more water in our irrigation canals than in the Colorado River. Without water, this would be a lifeless desert. We average about 3" of rain a year.

The desert is hardly lifeless.  But with a lot less water, there would be far fewer people.  But there would still be plenty of life.

[tcswans]

I believe God said, "Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth...."
...
From the point of view of Genesis, there was a major reason to multiply and fill the earth.  The future of (hu)mankind depended on it.  I don't think that is true at this time, and, thus, I do not see the avoidance of pregnancy as a sin.  This is not to say that I agree with any form of abortion. 

John Ericksen

Something that has not yet been raised in this thread about contraception: It would seem that the population of Europe, once the center of Christendom, isn’t reproducing at a full replacement rate any more. I can’t cite Prof. Lewis, but the other night I saw Charles Krauthammer quote Bernard Lewis, the great scholar of Islamic history, as saying that by the end of the 21st century Europe will be Muslim. This is a truly terrifying prospect.

—Tim

[Karl Hess]

I believe God said, "Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth...."
...
From the point of view of Genesis, there was a major reason to multiply and fill the earth.  The future of (hu)mankind depended on it.  I don't think that is true at this time, and, thus, I do not see the avoidance of pregnancy as a sin.  This is not to say that I agree with any form of abortion. 

John Ericksen

Something that has not yet been raised in this thread about contraception: It would seem that the population of Europe, once the center of Christendom, isn’t reproducing at a full replacement rate any more. I can’t cite Prof. Lewis, but the other night I saw Charles Krauthammer quote Bernard Lewis, the great scholar of Islamic history, as saying that by the end of the 21st century Europe will be Muslim. This is a truly terrifying prospect.

—Tim

Yes, that's the reality.  Birthrates in Western Europe and Russia are between 1.3 and around 1.7 children per couple.  1.6 per couple is a rate so low that, as I understand it, no culture has ever not gone extinct that has had one that low.  And 1.3 is supposed to be mathematically impossible to reverse.  If the United States didn't have so much immigration, our birthrate would be, I believe, 1.7 children per couple, but with immigration we are at 2.1, which is just exactly replacement rate. 

Supposedly a German official has stated that Germany will be Islamic by 2050.  Recently a suburb of London elected an Islamist mayor.  Awhile back there was a scholar who wrote a book called "Patriarchy."  He was a typical left leaning academic, but his work in demographics led him to realize that patriarchal cultures historically succeed because they are set up in such a way as to foster large families. 

[tcswans]

Awhile back there was a scholar who wrote a book called "Patriarchy."  He was a typical left leaning academic, but his work in demographics led him to realize that patriarchal cultures historically succeed because they are set up in such a way as to foster large families. 

Would the scholar you cite perhaps be Steven Goldberg, who wrote a devastating refutation of the feminist theory of male dominance, "The Inevitability of Patriarchy," the third edition retitled "Why Men Rule"? Goldberg was the head of the Sociology Department at CUNY. (He had obviously already received tenure by the time his book was published!)

Tim

[Charles_Austin]

Tim Swanson writes:
I can’t cite Prof. Lewis, but the other night I saw Charles Krauthammer quote Bernard Lewis, the great scholar of Islamic history, as saying that by the end of the 21st century Europe will be Muslim. This is a truly terrifying prospect.

I muse:
"Europe," or at least large sections of it (the Iberian peninsula, huge territories in eastern Europe) has been "Muslim" before. And huge sections of Europe were "communist" during most of our lifetime. So do you fear that the church will somehow be crushed and destroyed? I think we have some advance word from the Lord on that matter.

[Charles_Austin]

Karl Hess writes (apparently with some "concern"):
Recently a suburb of London elected an Islamist mayor.

I comment:
My town has a mayor who is a Muslim. (Don't really know what an "Islamist" is.) And my town is 40 percent Jewish, a large number of those in Orthodox synagogues. The deputy mayor is a member of one of those synagogues.

[tcswans]

I muse:
"Europe," or at least large sections of it (the Iberian peninsula, huge territories in eastern Europe) has been "Muslim" before. And huge sections of Europe were "communist" during most of our lifetime. So do you fear that the church will somehow be crushed and destroyed? I think we have some advance word from the Lord on that matter.

I counter-muse: large swaths of northern Africa, Anatolia, and the eastern Levant were were once “Christian” — eleven centuries ago. So don’t keep us in the dark. What was the Lord’s “advance word on that matter”?

And thank you for sharing the fetching morceau about your town’s mayor.

— Tim

[Team Hesse]

Tim Swanson writes:
I can’t cite Prof. Lewis, but the other night I saw Charles Krauthammer quote Bernard Lewis, the great scholar of Islamic history, as saying that by the end of the 21st century Europe will be Muslim. This is a truly terrifying prospect.

I muse:
"Europe," or at least large sections of it (the Iberian peninsula, huge territories in eastern Europe) has been "Muslim" before. And huge sections of Europe were "communist" during most of our lifetime. So do you fear that the church will somehow be crushed and destroyed? I think we have some advance word from the Lord on that matter.

Have your travels taken you to Istanbul, Antioch, or say, Kosovo lately? Christian presence is fairly difficult to detect in these places that once were thriving centers of vibrant Christian culture and practice. When we were in Istanbul a year ago, it was clear questions about the Christian history of the place were not considered that important. The call of the Iman reverberating over the city of Constantine gives one pause-at least one like me. Listening to current stories of christian witness and persecution in Izmir (ancient Smyrna) humbled this fellow-traveler in gratitude that the Lord has not given me that cross to bear.

Lou

[Karl Hess]

Karl Hess writes (apparently with some "concern"):
Recently a suburb of London elected an Islamist mayor.

I comment:
My town has a mayor who is a Muslim. (Don't really know what an "Islamist" is.) And my town is 40 percent Jewish, a large number of those in Orthodox synagogues. The deputy mayor is a member of one of those synagogues.

An Islamist is not the same as a Muslim.  Educate yourself on it; do a google search or something.

[Charles_Austin]

Actually, it has not been the "city of Constantine" since 1453. And fairness would insist that we also cite the long periods of time when Christians, Jews and Muslims lived side by side and shared each other's culture and learning.
From what I have read, an "Islamist" is a Muslim, albeit the kind of extremist who makes peaceful coexistence impossible, rather like a certain breed of Christian that exists in some circles.

I suggest browsing through Dr. Marty's "Sightings" website for some reflections on the interaction between Islam and Christianity and Muslims and the United States.
http://divinity.uchicago.edu/martycenter/publications/sightings/

[Karl Hess]

Actually, it has not been the "city of Constantine" since 1453. And fairness would insist that we also cite the long periods of time when Christians, Jews and Muslims lived side by side and shared each other's culture and learning.
From what I have read, an "Islamist" is a Muslim, albeit the kind of extremist who makes peaceful coexistence impossible, rather like a certain breed of Christian that exists in some circles.

I suggest browsing through Dr. Marty's "Sightings" website for some reflections on the interaction between Islam and Christianity and Muslims and the United States.
http://divinity.uchicago.edu/martycenter/publications/sightings/

Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived side by side.  But Christians and Jews had to live under the requirements of dhimmitude--they had to pay a tax, were forbidden by law to repair their churches or evangelize, and were in every way second-class citizens.  And even if these conditions were relaxed at times and places, the laws requiring this were always on the books and were impossible to get rid of, because their foundation is in the Quran.

Here's some stories about the election in the UK.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100060304/labour-london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic/
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6409749/the-capture-of-tower-hamlets.thtml

[Karl Hess]

Byt the way, thanks for the link to Dr. Marty's site.  Although I will undoubtedly disagree with it, it's pleasant to read from a multitude of perspectives.

[Karl Hess]

Ah, the demography scholar I was thinking of earlier is Philip Longman.

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2006/the_return_of_patriarchy