Author Topic: Contraception  (Read 9416 times)

kls

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2010, 10:30:55 AM »
Thank you.  Praise God, my wife and our 4 children are happy and healthy now.  I am reminded on a daily basis that children are a blessing from God, and to some degree I share the sentiments that you have expressed.  My point in sharing some very personal information was to caution against being too quick to assume to know what motivates people to make the decisions they make.

Peace,
Jon

Amen!  I know for me I would probably not have come to recognize the gift that children are without the losses I endured.  We do have to be careful not to make general assumptions; I still catch myself doing it at times!   :(

iowakatie1981

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2010, 10:56:13 AM »
Right, I'm not trying to "sinfully presume" anything about anybody. 

I think, like most of us here, that there is a big difference between contracepting because "well, we just don't want kids right now" and because there is an actual medical or other legitimate issue going on.

Obviously, there's no cause for judging anybody based on the number of kids they have.  I myself have zero (then again, my "birth control" method is 100% effective  ;) ). 

The point I was trying to make, (not all that well, apparently) is that, absent other significant concerns, a decision to contracept (in my mind, anyway) speaks not only to a person's attitude towards God and potential children, but also towards his or her spouse. 

But I'm also not quite ready to preach or teach this sentiment.  This is big, personal issue, there are a lot of things at play, and it involves the most intimate relationships in anyone's life - God and spouse.

It's where I happen to be at right now, as an unmarried woman, but I also appreciate that others are at different places based on their own individual circumstances. 

iowakatie1981

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2010, 11:02:59 AM »
The point I was trying to make, (not all that well, apparently) is that, absent other significant concerns, a decision to contracept (in my mind, anyway) speaks not only to a person's attitude towards God and potential children, but also towards his or her spouse. 

But I'm also not quite ready to preach or teach this sentiment.  This is big, personal issue, there are a lot of things at play, and it involves the most intimate relationships in anyone's life - God and spouse.

And don't forget the potential children as well.  Those are also among the most intimate relationships in anyone's life.

Indeed, the intimacy of the relationship between parent and child plays into John 3:16, does it not?  ;)

Mike

True 'dat. ;)

kls

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2010, 11:03:45 AM »
Right, I'm not trying to "sinfully presume" anything about anybody.  

I think, like most of us here, that there is a big difference between contracepting because "well, we just don't want kids right now" and because there is an actual medical or other legitimate issue going on.

Obviously, there's no cause for judging anybody based on the number of kids they have.  I myself have zero (then again, my "birth control" method is 100% effective  ;) ).  

The point I was trying to make, (not all that well, apparently) is that, absent other significant concerns, a decision to contracept (in my mind, anyway) speaks not only to a person's attitude towards God and potential children, but also towards his or her spouse.  

But I'm also not quite ready to preach or teach this sentiment.  This is big, personal issue, there are a lot of things at play, and it involves the most intimate relationships in anyone's life - God and spouse.

It's where I happen to be at right now, as an unmarried woman, but I also appreciate that others are at different places based on their own individual circumstances.  

I appreciate your words, sister Katie!  And AMEN! to the only 100% effective means for preventing pregnancy that I endorse for all unmarried folks!  I also agree on the very personal nature of this subject.  Where I am at now, I will provide information to a woman who may ask and pray that she makes a decision that is pleasing to God.  Of course this is how I would counsel someone contemplating abortion, too.  It's not our place to judge or condemn, just speak the truth of God's Word and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work.

Karl Hess

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2010, 12:13:28 PM »
I don't think contraception within married couples is a tough decision at all, and I don't think adopting the Roman Catholic position makes good sense for Lutherans.
What about re-adopting the historic Lutheran position, which is a lot more similar to the current Roman position than it is to the current "Lutheran" position.

The thing I am most embarrassed about in the LCMS is the way we have sold out on divorce and birth control.
I don't think it is fair to link selling out on divorce to allowing birth control, scripture being very clear about divorce and not so clear on the other.  But as for going back to the way the things used to be....

My German-Lutheran immigrant great-grandfather married his first wife, who gave him children and died young of childbirth complications. Then he married my grandmother's mother, who likewise met a similar fate. The third wife produced babies, but at least she survived childbearing years. They all lived out their lives in poverty, my sainted grandmother being pulled from school in the 4th grade to work in a Baltimore textile mill.  Took a needle through the hand, and never finished her education since she herself married at 15 and began her family.  And those were the "good old days" right before the turn of the century. May they never return.
Kurt

Without those good old days in which people had a lot of children and lived in poverty, would you even exist?

Karl Hess

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2010, 12:19:43 PM »
Sorry - I hit the reply key too soon.
The comment "Now, children are seen as burdens that must be planned" is a non-documented generalization.
That some people see children as a burden or an inconvenient nuisance has been true for ages.  Today, as in the past, there are cultures where baby girls are a burden and little boys a highy valued prize.  
One has only to look at the magazines available at the grocery check out to see how having a baby has become something of a status symbol in Hollywood. As to the will of God and the number of children a couple has. Talk to couples dealing with infertility and they have a hard time regarding their inability to have children as the will of God.

Forget Hollywood---having a baby is a status symbol in high school now!  :o Since I left the Air Force and began teaching almost 18 years ago, I have only known one of my pregnant students to give up her baby for adoption.  The norm for young generation we have now is NOT a family with an adult currently-married mother and father.  It is a national disgrace, and something more worthy of attention than a movement to ban Lutheran contraception.
Kurt

The failure to teach about the divinely instituted connection between sex, marriage, and conception is part of the reason we have this national disgrace.  Just as people look at sex as detachable from life long union, so people look at childbearing as having nothing to do with marriage.  Talk with an advocate of homosexual marriage about how the reason that the state shouldn't permit it is because they need to protect marriage as an institution for bearing and raising children.  They will tell you, Marriage has nothing to do with children.  Many Lutherans have imbibed the same way of thinkng from the culture.

Karl Hess

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2010, 12:23:02 PM »
What about this angle:  I think I finally was convinced to be anti-birth control (at least personally - I'm not yet prepared to teach/preach it) a few years ago when I heard someone (I forget who) describing an insistence on birth control as saying, "Baby, I love you enough to want to have sex with you.  I want all of you.  All, that is, except your fertility."

What happens when we look at contraception as a rejection of part of one's spouse?

I'm not wording this very well, I'm sorry.  Can somebody help me tease this out a little?

You hit the nail on the head, Katie.  That was one of the things that converted me too.  "I want all of you but your capacity to produce life."  That means that at the level of greatest intimacy you are saying to your spouse, "i do not give that part of myself to you."

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2010, 12:25:36 PM »
Without those good old days in which people had a lot of children and lived in poverty, would you even exist?
Maybe not, but then again Hitler Stalin might not have existed either. Hard to judge God's will.  Maybe I don't actually exist, come to think of it...my brain hurts!

BTW, I used the example of my mother's grandparents, but my father's grandparents in Anne Arundel Co. had an much more tragic story (only 2 of 10 children made it to adulthood, my grandmother being one of the two).
Kurt
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 12:33:03 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

ptmccain

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2010, 12:27:52 PM »
Oh, oh. The dreaded Hitler card has been played, thus signaling a discussion has totally left the tracks.

 :)

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2010, 12:34:01 PM »
Oh, oh. The dreaded Hitler card has been played, thus signaling a discussion has totally left the tracks.
 :)
Well my existence WAS bought into question. I changed it. ;)
Kurt
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

olarmy02

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »
‎"When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in 1517, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, butů 400 years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas." 
‎"I can go down the road any time I want and walk into Harry's and hold my head up high, and say in a loud steady voice: 'Harry I want you to sell me a condom. In fact, today I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant."

From 'Monty Python's the Meaning of Life'

 ;D
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2010, 12:57:34 PM »
I believe that is the scene in which the father criticizes Catholics for thinking they must have a baby every time they have sex, and the mother relpies "How is that any different from us? We have two children, and......" ;D
Kurt
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

Steverem

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2010, 12:59:17 PM »
‎"When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in 1517, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, butů 400 years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas." 
‎"I can go down the road any time I want and walk into Harry's and hold my head up high, and say in a loud steady voice: 'Harry I want you to sell me a condom. In fact, today I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant."

From 'Monty Python's the Meaning of Life'

 ;D


Great--now I'm going to have that Dickens-esque homage to sperm running through my head.  Thanks a lot!   ;)

olarmy02

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2010, 01:06:37 PM »
I believe that is the scene in which the father criticizes Catholics for thinking they must have a baby every time they have sex, and the mother relpies "How is that any different from us? We have two children, and......" ;D
Kurt

Absolutely.  Monty Python Gold, along with the birth scene at the hospital and the machine that goes 'ping'.
woman in labor: "What do you want me to do?"
John Cleese (Dr.): "Nothing my dear, you are not qualified."
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2010, 01:15:11 PM »
‎"When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in 1517, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, butů 400 years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas."  
‎"I can go down the road any time I want and walk into Harry's and hold my head up high, and say in a loud steady voice: 'Harry I want you to sell me a condom. In fact, today I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant."

From 'Monty Python's the Meaning of Life'

 ;D


Great--now I'm going to have that Dickens-esque homage to sperm running through my head.  Thanks a lot!   ;)
I worked with a guy who grew up in northeast Pennsylvania coal and Catholic country, who saw this in the theater when it premiered.  Uproarious laughter throughout the movie, except for this scene, when as he tells it, you could have heard a pin drop.
Sterling Spatz
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