Author Topic: Contraception  (Read 9420 times)

SteveS

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2010, 09:30:08 PM »
Thank you for knowing and speaking the intent of all of us  >:(


Isn't the intent the same thing?


No, it isn't.

Pax, Steven+

iowakatie1981

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2010, 09:35:20 PM »
What about this angle:  I think I finally was convinced to be anti-birth control (at least personally - I'm not yet prepared to teach/preach it) a few years ago when I heard someone (I forget who) describing an insistence on birth control as saying, "Baby, I love you enough to want to have sex with you.  I want all of you.  All, that is, except your fertility."

What happens when we look at contraception as a rejection of part of one's spouse?

I'm not wording this very well, I'm sorry.  Can somebody help me tease this out a little?

Weedon

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2010, 09:36:34 PM »
Actually, Katie, I can't imagine a better way of stating the crucial issue.  Thank you for that! 

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2010, 10:11:03 PM »
I can appreciate some of the points made about contraception, but finally what always strikes me about many, not all, of the folks advocating the "no contraception" thing is that there is quite an odor of legalism and self-righteousness about it. Kind of like ex-smokers preaching their new found freedom from smoking. It's not enough for them that they have many children as physically possible for them, they try to send others packing for a guilt trip that do not share their zeal to have a bevy of bambinos.
Those who choose to have many children, I say, more power to them and God bless them. Those who decide not to, that's their choice as well. There is no sin, necessarily and always, in contraception.
I do, however, believe healthy young men and women who marry with no intention to have children, should not be married and should abstain from sexual relations. One of the Creator's clear intentions for marriage is that it should be a relationship in which there is fruitful multiplying.
When I'm asked about contraception, I always like to say, "God said to be fruitful and multiply. My wife and I have. So, now tell me again, what are we doing wrong?" :)
Thank you for this well-stated post! We also joyfully multiplied, but without any exponents (to extend a math metaphor). I don't shake my finger and look over the top of my glasses at anyone who had fewer or more children than us.  
Except for that "Octo-mom" woman maybe....
Kurt
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:15:13 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

James Thomas Sharp

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2010, 11:18:20 PM »
I can appreciate some of the points made about contraception, but finally what always strikes me about many, not all, of the folks advocating the "no contraception" thing is that there is quite an odor of legalism and self-righteousness about it.
Calling it legalism is a good way of avoiding the fact that it is the historic position of all orthodox Christianity, that there's plenty of biblical basis for the position, and that it's hard to make a very good case from Scripture that we should limit the number of children that we have to the number we want.

Quote
Those who choose to have many children, I say, more power to them and God bless them. Those who decide not to, that's their choice as well. There is no sin, necessarily and always, in contraception.
I agree.  Like many things, the issue is the intention and motivation.

Quote
I do, however, believe healthy young men and women who marry with no intention to have children, should not be married and should abstain from sexual relations. One of the Creator's clear intentions for marriage is that it should be a relationship in which there is fruitful multiplying.
What if they have one?  Is that enough?  Or two?  Or three, which is technically multiplying? 

Quote
When I'm asked about contraception, I always like to say, "God said to be fruitful and multiply. My wife and I have. So, now tell me again, what are we doing wrong?"
Which other of God's commands have you kept perfectly? ;)


I am not looking for the LCMS to oppose all forms of contraception at all times, or to make the "baby a year" demand that has become a straw man on this thread.  I am looking for people to teach the biblical worldview.  Limiting the number of children to what's convenient so that we can have a bigger house and more gadgets or advance at work or so that we can enjoy our lives first or travel before we have kids/travel after we have kids or whatever other selfish motivations have moved people not to have kids is just as incompatible with the biblical worldview as homosexual marriage.  Limiting because of some sort of real ethical/moral dilemma is a different issue.  I don't sit in judgment of people with 1 or 2 kids because I have no idea why they have 1 or 2.  I do teach those who ask that when God says multiply he doesn't mean by 1 or by 0.
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totaliter vivens

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2010, 11:43:23 PM »
I’m a bit hesitant to wade into this conversation, but I do have a serious question.

Certainly children are a blessing although it does not logically follow that more of a blessing is always a blessing.

It appears that a number of people frame the issue as one of being obedient to the will of God. If God wills children then I have children and if God wills otherwise I do not.

So here’s the question… Is this obedience to God’s will limited to procreation? Is there a point at which medical interventions, surgery, selective breeding of plants and animals (not to mention genetic manipulation), etc. become efforts to thwart the will of God?

Scripture and the bulk of Church tradition view plague, disease, drought, famine, etc. as at least potentially the will of God. How do we delineate the boundaries between what we should accept and what we should seek to change?

SPS

Weedon

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2010, 09:09:42 AM »
Pastor Sabin,

I think there is a profound difference within the Scripture toward such things:  death is rather largely viewed as "the enemy" and sickness, too, as that for which God's people beg relief of God, or as the old theologians would say "a mitigation of the crosses He lays upon us."  But nowhere in Scripture or in the tradition are children perceived to be other than blessing from the hand of God, no?  Even to extolling quantity:  Blessed is the man who has his quiver full of them!

Steverem

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2010, 09:17:33 AM »

I am not looking for the LCMS to oppose all forms of contraception at all times, or to make the "baby a year" demand that has become a straw man on this thread. 


Married: October, 2008
Daughter Born: July 2009
Son Born: September 2010

Who should I be talking to about getting my "More Lutheran than Thou" medal?   ;)


Steverem

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2010, 09:24:25 AM »

Thanks for explicating the difference in the use of medical technology which extols life and keeps the enemy of death at bay as opposed to that which gives aid and comfort to the enemy of Death.



Of course, it gets a little murkier when you think deeper about some of the fertilization methods, where several embryos are created in vitro

kls

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2010, 10:01:38 AM »

Married: October, 2008
Daughter Born: July 2009
Son Born: September 2010

Who should I be talking to about getting my "More Lutheran than Thou" medal?   ;)

Just for fun:

Married:  August 1991
Twin Sons Born:  July 1995
Daughter Born:  March 1997
Daughter Born:  December 1998
Daughter Born:  August 2000
Son Born:  April 2002

My award is that I have any sanity left given seminary, all the moves, etc.  ;D

JEdwards

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2010, 10:08:07 AM »
What happens when we look at contraception as a rejection of part of one's spouse?
We are likely to be making uncharitable assumptions.

My wife and I have conceived 7 children.  Four survived to birth.  One of the miscarriages triggered abnormalities in my wife's blood clotting system leading to several days in the hospital with severe bleeding.  As part of her evaluation we learned that she has several uncommon genes that may predispose to miscarriages and bleeding.  The optimal medical management of these conditions is still unknown.  But it's a free country, so you are more than welcome to proclaim that my decision to have a vasectomy is a selfish rejection of a part of my wife.

Jon

Charles_Austin

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2010, 10:12:52 AM »
Some will, Jon. But I won't.

iowakatie1981

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 10:16:51 AM »
Jon,

I'm terribly sorry for all that you and your wife have gone through.  I'll be keeping your family in my prayers.  

I just want to note, however, that my post was not meant to accuse anyone.  It was simply trying to look at the issue from a different angle, and trying (poorly) to explain why I personally have come to the place I have.  I'm sorry that came across as hurtful; it was not at all what I intended.

JEdwards

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2010, 10:24:25 AM »
Thank you.  Praise God, my wife and our 4 children are happy and healthy now.  I am reminded on a daily basis that children are a blessing from God, and to some degree I share the sentiments that you have expressed.  My point in sharing some very personal information was to caution against being too quick to assume to know what motivates people to make the decisions they make.

Peace,
Jon

kls

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2010, 10:27:30 AM »
What happens when we look at contraception as a rejection of part of one's spouse?
We are likely to be making uncharitable assumptions.

My wife and I have conceived 7 children.  Four survived to birth.  One of the miscarriages triggered abnormalities in my wife's blood clotting system leading to several days in the hospital with severe bleeding.  As part of her evaluation we learned that she has several uncommon genes that may predispose to miscarriages and bleeding.  The optimal medical management of these conditions is still unknown.  But it's a free country, so you are more than welcome to proclaim that my decision to have a vasectomy is a selfish rejection of a part of my wife.

Jon

Thank you for sharing this, Jon.  I am so sorry for your losses.  I struggle with really having much to say on the subject given our own situation.  During my 5th C-section to deliver our son, my OB gave us the bad news that I couldn't sustain another pregnancy because of having too much scar tissue.  We took the permanent route while he was still in there without having a whole lot of time to think and pray on it.  If I was wrong, at least I know I'm forgiven.   :D