Contraception

[ptmccain]

Hey, guys, can we keep this conversation at a higher level? There are ladies' present and this is not a locker room.

Stay classy!

[olarmy02]

Hey, guys, can we keep this conversation at a higher level? There are ladies' present and this is not a locker room.

Stay classy!

My Lutheran Fenian Brother, apologies if my quote of Monty Python has offended.  Given the oft-discussed topic of sexuality (ususally of the same gender variety) and an entire thread devouted to 'Drag Shows' I thought the quote tame.

[kls]

Hey, guys, can we keep this conversation at a higher level? There are ladies' present and this is not a locker room.

Stay classy!

Nothing about this forum so far screams "class" at me.    I have worked for years in pregnancy resource centers trying to help men and women understand God's design for sex.  Plus I spent six years in the Army.  Not much phases me any more.  My husband loves Monty Python, but the humor is over my head.  Have fun with it where I'm concerned.  It's honestly easier for me to take this than all the talk of homosexuality that every other thread seems to digress to.

[Kurt Weinelt]

Nothing about this forum so far screams "class" at me.    I have worked for years in pregnancy resource centers trying to help men and women understand God's design for sex.  Plus I spent six years in the Army.  Not much phases me any more.  My husband loves Monty Python, but the humor is over my head.  Have fun with it where I'm concerned.  It's honestly easier for me to take this than all the talk of homosexuality that every other thread seems to digress to.

You nailed it (like Luther?)......THAT is the one topic that is worse than invoking Hitler!
Kurt

[Karl Hess]

Without those good old days in which people had a lot of children and lived in poverty, would you even exist?

Maybe not, but then again Hitler Stalin might not have existed either. Hard to judge God's will.  Maybe I don't actually exist, come to think of it...my brain hurts!

BTW, I used the example of my mother's grandparents, but my father's grandparents in Anne Arundel Co. had an much more tragic story (only 2 of 10 children made it to adulthood, my grandmother being one of the two).
Kurt

God intended good to come from Hitler and Stalin too.  They too were given as gifts to their parents.

[jeric]

I'm really late to this discussion, but here goes:

I believe God said, "Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth...."

When I told my boys to "Go out and shovel the snow," their goal was to clear the walks and driveway.  When they had accomplished that goal they were no longer expected to keep shoveling.  I feel the same about God's command to "fill the earth:"  when we have done that, we are no longer expected to continue to the point of overproduction.

From the point of view of Genesis, there was a major reason to multiply and fill the earth.  The future of (hu)mankind depended on it.  I don't think that is true at this time, and, thus, I do not see the avoidance of pregnancy as a sin.  This is not to say that I agree with any form of abortion.  To me, this is not the point of a thread on "Contraception," they are not the same.

John Ericksen

[SmithL]

All of my wife's pregnancies were problem pregnancies, and when we were expecting out third child, the doctor was very concerned for her health.  He told us that this had to be our last child.  She nodded in agreement and told him that I would be getting a vasectomy after our daughter was born.  He told us that he didn't care if I got pregnant, and he was going to make sure she didn't get pregnant again. And this was at a Catholic hospital.

[Matt]

Jeric,

The Earth is filled? By what measure? Ever been to Mongolia?

The prophets of population doom led by Paul Ehrlich in the 1960s have been utterly discredited. In fact, depopulation now seems to be the greater threat to well-being in most of the world, including, of all places, China. Ironic, since China has engaged in a couple of generations of self-genocide based on this asinine conventional wisdom.

I think God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply applies to us today every bit as much as it did to Adam and Eve. Far more evil and human suffering has come from breaking this commandment than keeping it.

[Weedon]

This was an interesting program on NPR touching on the problems of depopulation:

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-10-21/ted-fishman-shock-gray

[jeric]

Jeric,

The Earth is filled? By what measure? Ever been to Mongolia?

The prophets of population doom led by Paul Ehrlich in the 1960s have been utterly discredited. In fact, depopulation now seems to be the greater threat to well-being in most of the world, including, of all places, China. Ironic, since China has engaged in a couple of generations of self-genocide based on this asinine conventional wisdom.

I think God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply applies to us today every bit as much as it did to Adam and Eve. Far more evil and human suffering has come from breaking this commandment than keeping it.

Nope.  Never been to Mongolia, nor the Sahara, or the wilds of Brazil, etc.  And neither have very many other people.  For good reason, they are very inhospitable areas.

I've seen the problems when the population explosion moves to Arizona.  About every six years they establish a commission to inquire: "Where are we going to get water for all these people?"  Its very interesting that you never hear another word from that commission.

I don't buy the argument that "there is plenty of room."  Not when NASA is looking for habitable planets and ways to get to them.

I think we've fulfilled the command to "multiply and fill the earth," and, therefore we can rejoice in a job well done.

John Ericksen

[Weedon]

Well, not just Mongolia.  When you get in your car and drive across the States you realize how empty most of our country is - we cluster in the big cities and the burbs, but my goodness, there's lots and lots of empty land here.  I notice it driving out to MD (east), but it is even more striking when heading west (my brother lives in Montana). 

[Brian Stoffregen]

Well, not just Mongolia.  When you get in your car and drive across the States you realize how empty most of our country is - we cluster in the big cities and the burbs, but my goodness, there's lots and lots of empty land here.  I notice it driving out to MD (east), but it is even more striking when heading west (my brother lives in Montana). 

I lived in Wyoming -- lots of empty spaces. However, even with all this empty space, do all the people who are now filling the earth have clean water to drink? Do they have sufficient food to eat? Do they have what is necessary for shalom in their lives?

I remember reading about an experiment with guppies in a fish bowl. In one case, the experimenters started with two guppies -- a male and a female. Over time, they reached x number of guppies in the bowl. In another case, the experimenters started with the same size fish bowl, and filled it with many, many guppies. Over time, they reduced their numbers by killing off the weaker ones to x number of guppies -- about the same number as when they started with two.

If we are allowing people to starve to death, perhaps the earth has reached the capacity population that it can handle.

[kls]

If we are allowing people to starve to death, perhaps the earth has reached the capacity population that it can handle.

Or unscrupulous authoritarian dictators/regimes in third world countries continue to hoard all the resources so they do not get to the people who need them most.  Guppies aren't people, but the experiment you put forth sounds a lot like the abortion issue to me.

[olarmy02]

Well, not just Mongolia.  When you get in your car and drive across the States you realize how empty most of our country is - we cluster in the big cities and the burbs, but my goodness, there's lots and lots of empty land here.  I notice it driving out to MD (east), but it is even more striking when heading west (my brother lives in Montana). 

I lived in Wyoming -- lots of empty spaces. However, even with all this empty space, do all the people who are now filling the earth have clean water to drink? Do they have sufficient food to eat? Do they have what is necessary for shalom in their lives?

I remember reading about an experiment with guppies in a fish bowl. In one case, the experimenters started with two guppies -- a male and a female. Over time, they reached x number of guppies in the bowl. In another case, the experimenters started with the same size fish bowl, and filled it with many, many guppies. Over time, they reduced their numbers by killing off the weaker ones to x number of guppies -- about the same number as when they started with two.

If we are allowing people to starve to death, perhaps the earth has reached the capacity population that it can handle.

I am sure none of our bellies are flapping against our backbones...

[Brian Stoffregen]

If we are allowing people to starve to death, perhaps the earth has reached the capacity population that it can handle.

Or unscrupulous authoritarian dictators/regimes in third world countries continue to hoard all the resources so they do not get to the people who need them most.  Guppies aren't people, but the experiment you put forth sounds a lot like the abortion issue to me.

Actually, I think it has more to do with war issues. Those who are squeezed out fight back for their place in the world, but those taking over the land and resources want it for themselves.

To use a different analogy, how often do growing families seek a larger house to better accommodate the growing family? Having adequate space is important to us.