Poll

Who will be elected as President of The LC-MS?

Jerry Kieschnick - 1st Ballot
6 (12%)
Matt Harrison -1st Ballot
23 (46%)
Jerry Kieschnick - 2nd or Later Ballot
14 (28%)
Matt Harrison - 2nd or Later Ballot
7 (14%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?  (Read 4087 times)

Christopher Miller

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2010, 12:47:32 PM »
...once your lungs are filled with good, smog-free (albeit fertilizer-scented) air…..it will all come out. You will become the voice of far-right Lutheranism.
Far-right Lutheranism and the palpable smell of, uh, fertilizer.  Interesting combination of images...    :-X
[[Sorry, couldn't resist...  ;D]]
but is that organic fertilizer?  and from a male or a female bovine?

best to all James

Is it a special LC-MS thing that nothing can be called by a simple name? The Confessions must be called "symbols", the parts of the service that aren't ordinarily the same every Sunday are the "Ordinaries". And cattle are referred to as "bovines"? Is that like a secret handshake kind of thing to keep outsiders out?
Actually, George, I think it's an EC thing. Gotta have a special name for everything.

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2010, 12:48:20 PM »
23 Harrison-16 Kieschnick. That is the poll result as of this minute. Very interesting!

ptmccain

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2010, 12:53:50 PM »
George, there is a book of definitions and illustrations of all our secret words and handshakes, but I can divulge this much to you:  :D

I know all this can get a tad confusing, but as with any culture, there is a unique language in that culture, so also the Church, as it developed in the West, of which we Lutherans are heirs. Here's how the whole ordinary/proper thing works. I am not sure if my friend Pastor Weedon is yet online, since I know he is headed to Higher Things in Nashville, so if he isn't, here you go. If he is, he can correct, modify and further elucidate on my comments.

"ordinaries" refers to the parts of the historic form of the worship service, shared throughout the Western Church that do not change from Sunday to Sunday, a handy way to remember this is the phrase, "Ordinarily they do not change." The "ordinaries" are the Kyrie, Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei. The term derives from the Latin phrase: "ordo missae" which means, simply, "The order of the Mass." The traditional Lutheran Divine Service, in its basic structure, did not change the Ordo Missae.

"Propers" refers to the lessons and readings assigne to the particular Sundays in the Church year, which do change from Sunday to Sunday, or feast/festival to feast/festival. The propers include: the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia or Tract, Sequence, Offertory, and Communion. The way we remember this is with the little phrase, "It is proper to change those parts of the service."

The traditional prayer offices, such as Matins, Vespers, Compline also each have parts that ordinarily do not change, and those that do, but I'll leave that for somebody else to explain.

George Erdner

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2010, 01:03:54 PM »
George, there is a book of definitions and illustrations of all our secret words and handshakes, but I can divulge this much to you:  :D

I know all this can get a tad confusing, but as with any culture, there is a unique language in that culture, so also the Church, as it developed in the West, of which we Lutherans are heirs. Here's how the whole ordinary/proper thing works. I am not sure if my friend Pastor Weedon is yet online, since I know he is headed to Higher Things in Nashville, so if he isn't, here you go. If he is, he can correct, modify and further elucidate on my comments.

"ordinaries" refers to the parts of the historic form of the worship service, shared throughout the Western Church that do not change from Sunday to Sunday, a handy way to remember this is the phrase, "Ordinarily they do not change." The "ordinaries" are the Kyrie, Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei. The term derives from the Latin phrase: "ordo missae" which means, simply, "The order of the Mass." The traditional Lutheran Divine Service, in its basic structure, did not change the Ordo Missae.

"Propers" refers to the lessons and readings assigne to the particular Sundays in the Church year, which do change from Sunday to Sunday, or feast/festival to feast/festival. The propers include: the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia or Tract, Sequence, Offertory, and Communion. The way we remember this is with the little phrase, "It is proper to change those parts of the service."

The traditional prayer offices, such as Matins, Vespers, Compline also each have parts that ordinarily do not change, and those that do, but I'll leave that for somebody else to explain.

OK, so I got "ordinary" and "proper" transposed. The point was that it would be just as easy to not use jargon. I'm not referring to specific examples of jargon so much as I am referring to the use of jargon in general. Generally speaking, there are a handful of LC-MS folks in here whose posts I need to translate with an ecclesial dictionary in order to understand.

Another part of the Lutheran culture was translating the Bible into the common language of the people to make it easier to understand. There can be historical trends to simplify the language and jargon of any culture, or there can be trends to complicate things by increasing the use of special jargon. I realize jargon exists. It is a fact of life.

So, the main thing I was asking was if it was an official institutional policy in the LC-MS to encourage an increase in the use of jargon for the sake of keeping the riff-raff in the dark, or if it just worked out that way. It wasn't a serious inquiry into the derivations of the jargon.

ptmccain

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2010, 01:12:44 PM »
George, no, there is no institutional policy in The LCMS that encourages an ever increasing use of jargon for the sake of keeping riff-raff in the dark. But then again, it would be such a top-secret policy that I would have no security clearance to have it either confirmed or denied, it being on a need to know basis, and I have no need to know.  :)

I do think you need to get past what appears to be nearly a knee-jerk reaction anytime you run across a term you are not familiar with. It just makes you seem like kind of a grump, which I can personally admire, but ... well, it kind of gets old, just like a certain other person's penchant for not using the quote function and making corrections to everyone's keyboarding at every opportunity and using the word "whimsy" to describe snarky remarks.  ::)

But now, at least, you do know the meaning of ordinary and proper. And I hope it properly and ordinarily proves helpful.

So, you're welcome!

 :D
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:14:21 PM by ptmccain »

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2010, 01:18:38 PM »
George,

This kind of terminology is not unique to Missouri. On the other hand, it is not universal in the Synod - the contemporary worship folks would consider "Ordinary" and "Proper" to be meaningless for homemade "liturgies".

For those who are shaped by the historic Liturgy of the catholic Church (including liturgical Lutherans from both the LC-MS and ELCA), these are useful terms. I'm pretty sure that there are ELCA folks on this list who use them all the time but probably are not following this thread and so will not chime in.

Perhaps a new thread might engage others in the discussion?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:28:42 PM by Daniel L. Gard »

Charles_Austin

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2010, 01:23:03 PM »
Chaplain Gard writes:
Perhaps a new thread might engage others in the discussion?

I muse:
Don't count on it.

Michael Slusser

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2010, 03:17:27 PM »
. But then again, it would be such a top-secret policy that I would have no security clearance to have it either confirmed or denied, it being on a need to know basis, and I have no need to know.  :)

You're too modest or too secretive: who would have access to such a policy if not CPH? They would have to know what could be disclosed, what was arcanum.  ;D

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

pr dtp

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2010, 03:20:11 PM »
George, there is a book of definitions and illustrations of all our secret words and handshakes, but I can divulge this much to you:  :D

I know all this can get a tad confusing, but as with any culture, there is a unique language in that culture, so also the Church, as it developed in the West, of which we Lutherans are heirs. Here's how the whole ordinary/proper thing works. I am not sure if my friend Pastor Weedon is yet online, since I know he is headed to Higher Things in Nashville, so if he isn't, here you go. If he is, he can correct, modify and further elucidate on my comments.

"ordinaries" refers to the parts of the historic form of the worship service, shared throughout the Western Church that do not change from Sunday to Sunday, a handy way to remember this is the phrase, "Ordinarily they do not change." The "ordinaries" are the Kyrie, Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei. The term derives from the Latin phrase: "ordo missae" which means, simply, "The order of the Mass." The traditional Lutheran Divine Service, in its basic structure, did not change the Ordo Missae.

"Propers" refers to the lessons and readings assigne to the particular Sundays in the Church year, which do change from Sunday to Sunday, or feast/festival to feast/festival. The propers include: the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia or Tract, Sequence, Offertory, and Communion. The way we remember this is with the little phrase, "It is proper to change those parts of the service."

The traditional prayer offices, such as Matins, Vespers, Compline also each have parts that ordinarily do not change, and those that do, but I'll leave that for somebody else to explain.

OK, so I got "ordinary" and "proper" transposed. The point was that it would be just as easy to not use jargon. I'm not referring to specific examples of jargon so much as I am referring to the use of jargon in general. Generally speaking, there are a handful of LC-MS folks in here whose posts I need to translate with an ecclesial dictionary in order to understand.

Another part of the Lutheran culture was translating the Bible into the common language of the people to make it easier to understand. There can be historical trends to simplify the language and jargon of any culture, or there can be trends to complicate things by increasing the use of special jargon. I realize jargon exists. It is a fact of life.

So, the main thing I was asking was if it was an official institutional policy in the LC-MS to encourage an increase in the use of jargon for the sake of keeping the riff-raff in the dark, or if it just worked out that way. It wasn't a serious inquiry into the derivations of the jargon.



George,

Propers and ordinary are pretty commonplace terms, even among us lowlife riff-raff CoWo and Blended folk who are trained (and train others) in leading worship.  The do mean slightly different things to different schools of thought but I was taught them in my old denomination as well.

Then again, one of the things we are taught, where the "traditional" folk seem to be left in the dark ( generally speaking) is in ensuring that our message can be understood.   For example - when BIble Translators use words like propitiation (Rom 3:25 and Heb 2:17 ) and assume that every pew-sitter uses that word at least 6 times a month and can define it and grasp the importance of the word.  Or they simply assume the laity can't read anyway, and therefore don't care - as long as those in the pastoral office can interpret it.  If they do such with the word of God, it makes sense that they would not want to see that the liturgy doesn't communicate things to everyone observing it, and further, that they would try to justify this with some gnostic mumbo jumbo.

Of course I will equally bash on those who try to simplify the concept to far, and in doing so lose the depth of the word picture that "hilasterion" is.  (that's the Greek word behind the translated word propitiation.

It takes more work and more time to communicate well.  It further takes more time because the only way to do it, is to build the relationships where people will not hesitate to say - "hey explain that again", while maintaining the ongoing study to remember all the data we are taught, and the meditation time to let the word sink in...

God Bless.

Charles_Austin

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2010, 03:49:32 PM »
I can rest easy tonight, knowing that others have taken over the task of instructing and (when necessary) correcting Mr. Erdner on the culture and nuances of Lutheranism.  ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) :D

pr dtp

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2010, 03:54:16 PM »
I can rest easy tonight, knowing that others have taken over the task of instructing and (when necessary) correcting Mr. Erdner on the culture and nuances of Lutheranism.  ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) :D

And even someone who understand both...rather than just thinks he does, because he's created them in his own image.  :-(

Jeff-MN

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2010, 06:52:22 PM »
the definition of "PROPERS" in the glossary of LSB includes hymns....   huh??

Evangel

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2010, 07:13:22 PM »
the definition of "PROPERS" in the glossary of LSB includes hymns....   huh??

I believe that the hymn of the day was prescribed as a proper.
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
Zion Lutheran Church, LCMC
Priddy, TX
--
ACXXIII, "Your majesty will graciously take into account the fact that, in these last times of which the Scriptures prophesy, the world is growing worse and men are becoming weaker and more infirm."

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2010, 07:15:01 PM »
the definition of "PROPERS" in the glossary of LSB includes hymns....   huh??

The hymns are considered Propers since they change with each Sunday. But they are a bit different since the hymns are not prescribed for each Sunday as are the other Propers (e.g. readings, introit, etc).  

Charles_Austin

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Re: New Poll: Who will be elected in Houston?
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2010, 08:08:44 PM »
Just for the record, and folks hate it when I do this, but...
I'd bet I've got more immersion in Lutheran life and culture than anyone else here. I'm probably the oldest one here. Augustana. ULCA. LCA. ELCA. Lutheran College. Study at two Lutheran Seminaries. Iowa parish. Four years working with LCA, ALC, LC-MS in the Lutheran Council-USA. Present at official dialogue sessions with Reformed, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics. New Jersey parish. Significant travels in world Lutheranism. LCA staff for the ELCA merger, etc. etc.
Lutheranism has created me, thank God, ofttimes in ways that I did not want to be created.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 08:11:49 PM by Charles_Austin »