Author Topic: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform  (Read 9953 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #150 on: July 02, 2010, 04:45:38 PM »
Quote from: Mike Bennett link=topic=2912.msg159550#msg159550 date=1278103222

[i
So who sees this humble correspondent, Pastor Stoffregen, Pastor McCain, Mr. Erdner and almost everyone else here side by side on the demonstration line for immigration reform and walking the halls of Congress advocating health care for the children of undocumented aliens? [/i]

I don't see one good reason why not, but somehow I'm thinking it won't happen.

Mike Bennett




Read again, Mike. I would be overjoyed to lock arms, yes, even hold hands together and do so if they would but join me in advocating for the rights of the unborn children of all Americans. I believe in being advocate for children before they are born, as much as I do for them after they are born. Brian and Charles, do not.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #151 on: July 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM »
The question of immigration reform, so far as I have been discussing it is not predicated or dependant only on policy related to immigrant children, though the status of children born here and thus citizens are of special concern.

I also think that the mixed families are of a special concern: families whose children are born here, and thus legal citizens, but where one or both parents who are here illegally. They can be arrested and deported at any time. Leaving the children to fend for themselves. I've heard teachers express concern about this.

Family values and our present immigration policies are in conflict with each other.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #152 on: July 02, 2010, 04:47:05 PM »
Family values and our present immigration policies are in conflict with each other.

Do family values include murdering unborn children?

Dave Benke

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #153 on: July 02, 2010, 04:47:30 PM »
I would agree with you on your point regarding legal matters, Jim.  This happens to be precisely where our inter-Lutheran work, Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services, kicks in.  Interestingly to the overall discussion, I was one of the Missouri Synod representatives down "on the Hill" last week going from House to Senate reps regarding Refugee concerns.  

My own answer therefore to the question as to whether inter-Lutheran work can be accomplished fairly when the pro-life question is not satisfactorily answered for a partner is the reluctant "Yes."  I have done so in the area of interaction on behalf of refugees, and would do so again if asked.  I have also been interim CEO of an inter-Lutheran SMO.  No one does not know in those settings my views regarding pro-life in the womb.  And no one doubted my concomitant passion for life after birth even and especially for those children (and adults) who are disadvantaged.  

Dave Benke

Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #154 on: July 02, 2010, 04:49:59 PM »
I'll gladly join you on that line, Charles, if you join me on the picket line protesting Roe v. Wade and the murder of unborn children. Deal?

1. I'm not Charles, but I'd have no problem with that deal.

2. I do find it rather hard on the strangers that support for their survival is a bargaining chip in an argument about abortion.  (I also find it rather hard on the unborn that their survival is a bargaining chip in an argument about immigration).  Does anybody else have a problem with either or both of these endangered groups being pawns in somebody else's deal-making process?

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

jpetty

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #155 on: July 02, 2010, 04:51:59 PM »
I think the wall has forced folks to cross the border somplace that doesn't have a wall.  That's all.

Mike Bennett


Quite right.  California and Texas have taken steps that make it tougher to enter through those states, which has funneled much of the traffic through Arizona.  This prompted the new Arizona law, which put illegal immigration back on the front burner politically.  (Actually, the number of "illegals" in the US has declined by about 20% since 2008 due to the recession.)


Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #156 on: July 02, 2010, 04:52:28 PM »
Thanks for the clarification on what the ELCA health plans cover.

So, before an unborn child reaches 21 weeks old, he/she may be electively terminated, for any reason, by a participant in the ELCA health plans.

I'm thinking there is not much good news here.


Before an unborn child reaches 21 weeks old, he/she may be electively terminated, for reasons deemed necessary after prayerful, thoughful consideration of the moral restraints by a participant in the ELCA health plan.

Still not getting it.  Not sure you're trying.

I've never met someone who relished so much in putting the worst construction on the moral actions of others.
Jim Krauser

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Weedon

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #157 on: July 02, 2010, 04:59:03 PM »
The murder of an unborn child is not a "moral action" but an immoral one, Jim.  What did Neuhaus say?  "Real churches don't kill babies."  I agree that abortion should not side-track the moral imperative of caring for the helpless among us who are already born; but surely you see that it is of piece with caring for the unborn?  I think that's what Erma was driving with her questions: 


Why do the children of illegal immigrants matter?  Why do unborn children matter? 

We need to be able to answer that.

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #158 on: July 02, 2010, 04:59:12 PM »
Before an unborn child reaches 21 weeks old, he/she may be electively terminated, for reasons deemed necessary after prayerful, thoughful consideration of the moral restraints by a participant in the ELCA health plan.

Thanks for confirming that the ELCA places no restraint, restriction, condition or otherwise on its members who wish to take the life of children under the age of 21 months.

It is truly sad that, obviously, that "prayerful, thoughtful consideration of the moral restraints by a participant" ... does not take into account the Fifth Commandment, "You shall not murder."

The helpless are always the most victimized, immediately after the truth is sacrificed for the sake of convenience.



Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #159 on: July 02, 2010, 04:59:41 PM »
So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Mike Bennett

How are the Mexican drug-smuggling cartels "the most helpless among us"?


Obviously nobody here has a corner on use of RED HERRINGS, do they?  I support arresting, trying, and punishing drug smugglers. 

Mike Bennett

Do you support arresting them when they are attempting to cross the border, or do you support waiting until after they've delivered their drugs and the drugs are sold and the drug smugglers are drinking cervezas at the cantina?


I support arresting a drug smuggler on the first occasion that (s)he's caught smuggling drugs.  Of course smuggling drugs across the border would be a fine occasion for arrest.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #160 on: July 02, 2010, 05:00:08 PM »
Quote from: Mike Bennett link=topic=2912.msg159550#msg159550 date=1278103222

[i
So who sees this humble correspondent, Pastor Stoffregen, Pastor McCain, Mr. Erdner and almost everyone else here side by side on the demonstration line for immigration reform and walking the halls of Congress advocating health care for the children of undocumented aliens? [/i]

I don't see one good reason why not, but somehow I'm thinking it won't happen.

Mike Bennett



Read again, Mike. I would be overjoyed to lock arms, yes, even hold hands together and do so if they would but join me in advocating for the rights of the unborn children of all Americans. I believe in being advocate for children before they are born, as much as I do for them after they are born. Brian and Charles, do not.


Still, that all-determinative "if" is there.

Let's try this.  
If I give you a cup of cold water to take to person A, it is morally necessary (for the sake of consistency) for me to agree to visit person B in prison, before you will do it?


Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #161 on: July 02, 2010, 05:01:59 PM »
Before an unborn child reaches 21 weeks old, he/she may be electively terminated, for reasons deemed necessary after prayerful, thoughful consideration of the moral restraints by a participant in the ELCA health plan.

Thanks for confirming that the ELCA places no restraint, restriction, condition or otherwise on its members who wish to take the life of children under the age of 21 months.

It is truly sad that, obviously, that "prayerful, thoughtful consideration of the moral restraints by a participant" ... does not take into account the Fifth Commandment, "You shall not murder."

The helpless are always the most victimized, immediately after the truth is sacrificed for the sake of convenience.


How do you know that is not taken into account?  Again you are imputing bad motives to those whose circumstances and reasons you do not and cannot know.
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #162 on: July 02, 2010, 05:03:42 PM »

So who sees this humble correspondent, Pastor Stoffregen, Pastor McCain, Mr. Erdner and almost everyone else here side by side on the demonstration line for immigration reform and walking the halls of Congress advocating health care for the children of undocumented aliens?


I don't see one good reason why not, but somehow I'm thinking it won't happen.

Mike Bennett


And a flurry of axe-grinding postings from the usual gang of axe-grinders has vindicated my dubiousness.  :(

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #163 on: July 02, 2010, 05:04:10 PM »
Jim, how does one "prayerfully" decide to murder their unborn child?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #164 on: July 02, 2010, 05:04:23 PM »
The murder of an unborn child is not a "moral action" but an immoral one, Jim.  What did Neuhaus say?  "Real churches don't kill babies."  I agree that abortion should not side-track the moral imperative of caring for the helpless among us who are already born; but surely you see that it is of piece with caring for the unborn?  I think that's what Erma was driving with her questions: 


Why do the children of illegal immigrants matter?  Why do unborn children matter? 

We need to be able to answer that.

The issue under this discussion is why do immigrants (legal and otherwise) matter. It's not just about children. It's also about teenagers and adults -- and even oldsters who may have been living in America as good citizens, but illegally, for decades.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]