Author Topic: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform  (Read 9948 times)

Dave Benke

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2010, 04:05:40 PM »
I believe your approach is fair, Paul.  If there are other groups working on immigration assistance to children who are being badly treated or whose life is endangered and they hold to a consistent pro-life stance in all regards, then there should be no problem from anyone's end with you or your group doing that.  

Then the issue is being addressed, which satisfies all involved including those solely dealing with that problem who are not pro-life in other regards, and your desire to work only with those with a consistent pro-life position is satisfied.  In that regard, my own belief is that the Roman Catholic agencies will be very consistent and active in both regards - life before birth and immigration reform/children's issues.  

Dave Benke

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2010, 04:11:16 PM »
You see that while we do not ask the health plan bureaucracy to impose restricutions, qualifications or conditions on the members  

Thank you for verifying that the ELCA's health plans provides for elective abortions without restrictions, qualifications or conditions.

That is not what I said.  What was clear in what I said is that the restrictions, qualifications and/or conditions are assessed and evaluated by the member before the claim is submitted to the plan.  The plan assumes the good faith, diligence and moral character of the member, thus the plan provides for elective abortions that are consistent with ELCA teaching and guidance.
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #137 on: July 02, 2010, 04:17:39 PM »
I believe your approach is fair, Paul.  If there are other groups working on immigration assistance to children who are being badly treated or whose life is endangered and they hold to a consistent pro-life stance in all regards, then there should be no problem from anyone's end with you or your group doing that.  

Then the issue is being addressed, which satisfies all involved including those solely dealing with that problem who are not pro-life in other regards, and your desire to work only with those with a consistent pro-life position is satisfied.  In that regard, my own belief is that the Roman Catholic agencies will be very consistent and active in both regards - life before birth and immigration reform/children's issues.  

Dave Benke

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, but some kinds of work requires direct interaction that may cause obvious conflict of interest, some does not.  Immigration reform will not be primarily accomplished by social service agencies, but by public policy and legislative reform.

Would the postion above require signing a separate petition in favor of the same immigration reform legislation-- only pro-life folks can sign this copy -- others have to get their own petition? 

Can a particular bill be supported even if those who are not pro-life have expressed support for it?
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #138 on: July 02, 2010, 04:18:37 PM »
So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Mike Bennett

How are the Mexican drug-smuggling cartels "the most helpless among us"?


Obviously nobody here has a corner on use of RED HERRINGS, do they?  I support arresting, trying, and punishing drug smugglers. 

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

George Erdner

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #139 on: July 02, 2010, 04:23:07 PM »
So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Mike Bennett

How are the Mexican drug-smuggling cartels "the most helpless among us"?


Obviously nobody here has a corner on use of RED HERRINGS, do they?  I support arresting, trying, and punishing drug smugglers. 

Mike Bennett

Do you support arresting them when they are attempting to cross the border, or do you support waiting until after they've delivered their drugs and the drugs are sold and the drug smugglers are drinking cervezas at the cantina?


ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2010, 04:25:40 PM »
That is not what I said.  


Jim, in fact, it is precisely what you said and now you are simply wordsmithing to back your way out of what was a very truthful statement on your part.

The ELCA's health plans do not place any restriction, condition or regulations on paying for elective abortions for its members.

George Erdner

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2010, 04:29:27 PM »
That is not what I said.  


Jim, in fact, it is precisely what you said and now you are simply wordsmithing to back your way out of what was a very truthful statement on your part.

The ELCA's health plans do not place any restriction, condition or regulations on paying for elective abortions for its members.


Though I'm no fan of the ELCA, I can see where it is possible to rely on the members of the clergy to voluntarily choose to not avail themselves of a given bit of health care insurance, and that reliance on the called and ordained clergy to voluntarily choose to do the right thing shouldn't be construed as a lack of proper concern. Sometimes relying on simple trust to do the right thing is a form of witness all its own, and isn't something to automatically condemn.


Erma S. Wolf

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2010, 04:31:55 PM »
Tis truly one of the oddest inconsistencies one can imagine that emerging from the womb as a "wanted" child endows that little human being with claims on our protection; but if the little one is unwanted prior to birth, it may be disposed of as human garbage.  If a drunk slams into a car with a pregnant woman, and she and her unborn are killed, you may be charged with double homicide; but if that very same woman were to decide at any point in her pregnancy to terminate it, the child wasn't really a child.  One has to be blind, absolutely blind, not to see the contradiction involved.  "A person's a person no matter how small."

"if the little one is unwanted prior to birth, it may be disposed of as human garbage"  

Neither I nor the ELCA supports abortion in such a case, and it is patently false to interpret our positions to suggest we do.

Please refer to the title of the thread. 



Jim, I agree with you that the ELCA does not, in its official statements and positions, support abortion in such a case.

My question:  what, if anything, are we as the ELCA doing or saying now to stop or even discourage abortion in such cases?

Why do the children of illegal immigrants matter?  Why do unborn children matter?  

George Erdner

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2010, 04:33:47 PM »
My question:  what, if anything, are we as the ELCA doing or saying now to stop or even discourage abortion in such cases?

Encouraging homosexuality?  ::)

Erma S. Wolf

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2010, 04:36:11 PM »
My question:  what, if anything, are we as the ELCA doing or saying now to stop or even discourage abortion in such cases?

Encouraging homosexuality?  ::)

George:  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2010, 04:37:07 PM »
For George, Paul, Charles, Brian, and anybody else who wants to make treatment of the stranger a matter of "liberal vs comservative," "traditionalist vs revisionist," or somehow drag your favorite peeve or grievance against the "other side" into a conversation regarding treatment of the stranger:

This traditionalist/conservative Lutheran finds Scripture (both OT and NT) consistent and unequivocal regarding treatment of the stranger, the poor, and the helpless.  He also finds the Lutheran Confessions to be consistent and unequivocal in that regard.  And he's content to be instructed by Scripture in every other matter of faith and conduct.

So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Are you then arguing that we should let the desperately poor enter our country to work so that they can provide for their families? That we should do everything possible to keep those entering illegally from dying, e.g., walking across the Arizona desert, swimming in the irrigation canals (which provide almost no way out)?

Is the Pope Catholic?


Has the fence and increase in personnel slowed illegal crossings?


The fence reminds me of a photograph in Life's Picture History of World War II, a book I used to look at by the hour as a child.  The photograph was of some hapless European nation's attempt to slow down invading German tanks.  The photograph showed a narrow road blocked for as far as the eye could see by trees that had been felled across the road by the defenders.  Parallelling the road was a column of German tanks racing along next to the road, probably 20 feet from the felled trees.

I think the wall has forced folks to cross the border somplace that doesn't have a wall.  That's all.

Mike Bennett
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2010, 04:38:59 PM »
The ELCA's health plans do not place any restriction, condition or regulations on paying for elective abortions for its members.

That is a lie. I just read the 2010 benefits and it states: The health plan does not cover these medical expenses: ... induced abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy (except when the life of the mother is threatened or the fetus has lethal abnormalities indicating death is imminent) (pages 11-12)

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Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2010, 04:40:22 PM »

So who sees this humble correspondent, Pastor Stoffregen, Pastor McCain, Mr. Erdner and almost everyone else here side by side on the demonstration line for immigration reform and walking the halls of Congress advocating health care for the children of undocumented aliens?


I don't see one good reason why not, but somehow I'm thinking it won't happen.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2010, 04:41:50 PM »
Tis truly one of the oddest inconsistencies one can imagine that emerging from the womb as a "wanted" child endows that little human being with claims on our protection; but if the little one is unwanted prior to birth, it may be disposed of as human garbage.  If a drunk slams into a car with a pregnant woman, and she and her unborn are killed, you may be charged with double homicide; but if that very same woman were to decide at any point in her pregnancy to terminate it, the child wasn't really a child.  One has to be blind, absolutely blind, not to see the contradiction involved.  "A person's a person no matter how small."

"if the little one is unwanted prior to birth, it may be disposed of as human garbage"  

Neither I nor the ELCA supports abortion in such a case, and it is patently false to interpret our positions to suggest we do.

Please refer to the title of the thread.  



Jim, I agree with you that the ELCA does not, in its official statements and positions, support abortion in such a case.

My question:  what, if anything, are we as the ELCA doing or saying now to stop or even discourage abortion in such cases?

It is not in my power to stop most sinful or even harmful behavior.  But, I know I along with you, and most other pastors would discourage abortion in our pastoral counsel.  
What we might or should do by way of advocacy in public policy, I think we will disagree on.
Quote

Why do the children of illegal immigrants matter?  Why do unborn children matter?  

The question of immigration reform, so far as I have been discussing it is not predicated or dependant only on policy related to immigrant children, though the status of children born here and thus citizens are of special concern.
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #149 on: July 02, 2010, 04:43:33 PM »
Thanks for the clarification on what the ELCA health plans cover.

So, before an unborn child reaches 21 weeks old, he/she may be electively terminated, for any reason, by a participant in the ELCA health plans.

I'm thinking there is not much good news here.