Author Topic: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform  (Read 9949 times)

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2010, 11:03:55 AM »
It is interesting that fear lies behind so much of the discussion of immigration.
People are illegal immigrants because we have made their coming to this country illegal. {see first bolded text below}  
But for earlier generations, such as for my family most of whom were here before 1875, there were no such impediments.
The enforcement of borders in a way that would preclude illegal immigration is a notion that is as obsolete as the walled city.
A nation that is founded on and values freedom should respect and encourage the free movement of peoples.  That said,
For those who come here to work and find work, they should be fully taxed, income, FICA, the whole deal.    
Perhaps a modest, but not punitive, sur-tax on such salaries should be applied for the additional burden on the system.
To criminalize the activity of seeking honest work to support one's self and family strikes me as immoral for in this way God provides them their daily bread.  {see second bolded text}


246 Whoever is willing to learn a lesson, let him know that this is God’s commandment and must not be treated as a joke. We shall put up with those of you who despise, defraud, steal, and rob us. We shall endure your arrogance and show forgiveness and mercy, as the Lord’s Prayer teaches. The upright, meanwhile, will not want, and you will hurt yourself more than others. But beware how you deal with the poor, of whom there are many now. 247 If, when you meet a poor man who must live from hand to mouth, you act as if everyone must live by your favor, you skin and scrape him right down to the bone, and you arrogantly turn him away whom you ought to give aid, he will go away wretched and dejected, and because he can complain to no one else, he will cry to heaven. Beware of this, I repeat, as of the devil himself. Such a man’s sighs and cries will be no joking matter. They will have an effect too heavy for you and all the world to bear, for they will reach God, who watches over poor, sorrowful hearts, and he will not leave them unavenged. But if you despise and defy this, see whom you have brought upon yourself. If you succeed and prosper, before all the world you may call God and me liars.
Tappert, T. G. (2000, c1959). The book of concord  : The confessions of the evangelical Lutheran church (The Large Catechism: 1, 246-247). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
emphasis added.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 01:11:35 PM by Jim_Krauser »
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

Weedon

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2010, 11:10:50 AM »
As a certain lady rather famously said:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Worth remembering as we celebrate Independence Day. 

George Erdner

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2010, 11:27:22 AM »
Here's some documentation to reply to those who implied I have no standing to comment on illegal aliens because I live in Gwinett County, Georgia. Emphasis added.

Gwinnett County, Ga.
The foreign born population in Gwinnett County has more than doubled since 2000, and now represents about 25% of the county's total population. Drawn to the area by an abundance of jobs in the service sector and the low cost of housing, the immigrants are mostly Hispanic. They are carving out a livelihood in a region where blacks have traditionally been the most visible minority. Gwinnett also has one of the highest rates of illegal immigration in the U.S. -- authorities estimate that half of all foreign born residents of the county are unauthorized.



Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2010, 12:39:42 PM »
It is kind of funny to notice how liberals quote the Old Testament selectively.

And so do traditionalists -- even with the NT.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2010, 01:00:24 PM »
For George, Paul, Charles, Brian, and anybody else who wants to make treatment of the stranger a matter of "liberal vs comservative," "traditionalist vs revisionist," "national security, " the "war against terrorism," or somehow drag your favorite peeve or grievance against the "other side" into a conversation regarding treatment of the stranger:

This traditionalist/conservative Lutheran finds Scripture (both OT and NT) consistent and unequivocal regarding treatment of the stranger, the poor, and the helpless.  He also finds the Lutheran Confessions to be consistent and unequivocal in that regard.  And he's content to be instructed by Scripture in every other matter of faith and conduct.

So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Mike Bennett
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 01:04:42 PM by Mike Bennett »
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2010, 01:01:15 PM »
Most of the 9/11 hijackers were also in the country illegally.

This is not what the Commission stated in their official report (emphasis added).

As we know from the sizable illegal traffic across our land borders, a terrorist could attempt to bypass legal procedures and enter the United States surreptitiously. None of the 9/11 attackers entered or tried to enter our country this way. So today we will focus on the hijackers’ exploitation of legal entry systems. We have handed out a list of the names of 9/11 attackers to help you follow our discussion.

And

Beginning in 1997, the 19 hijackers submitted 24 applications and received 23 visas. The pilots acquired most of their s in the year 2000. The other hijackers, with two exceptions, obtained their s between the fall of 2000 and June 2001. Two of the visas were issued in Berlin, and two were issued in the United Arab Emirates. The rest were issued in Saudi Arabia. One of the pilots, Hani Hanjour, had an application denied in September 2000 for lack of adequate documentation. He then produced more evidence in support of his student visa application, and it was approved. Except for Hanjour, all the hijackers sought tourist visas.

Read entire report at http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_1.pdf

In some cases, they did violate immigration laws by attending flight school while on a tourist visa rather than changing it to a student visa.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2010, 01:09:46 PM »
So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Mike Bennett

How are the Mexican drug-smuggling cartels "the most helpless among us"?

Most of the 9/11 hijackers were also in the country illegally.

This is not what the Commission stated in their official report (emphasis added).


Obtaining visas fraudulently is illegal. Overstaying the term of one's visa is also illegal. They might not have snuck across the border illegally as wetbacks, but it is just as illegal to get through a legal checkpoint by fraud as it is to swim across the Rio Grande.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2010, 01:12:18 PM »
For George, Paul, Charles, Brian, and anybody else who wants to make treatment of the stranger a matter of "liberal vs comservative," "traditionalist vs revisionist," or somehow drag your favorite peeve or grievance against the "other side" into a conversation regarding treatment of the stranger:

This traditionalist/conservative Lutheran finds Scripture (both OT and NT) consistent and unequivocal regarding treatment of the stranger, the poor, and the helpless.  He also finds the Lutheran Confessions to be consistent and unequivocal in that regard.  And he's content to be instructed by Scripture in every other matter of faith and conduct.

So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Are you then arguing that we should let the desperately poor enter our country to work so that they can provide for their families? That we should do everything possible to keep those entering illegally from dying, e.g., walking across the Arizona desert, swimming in the irrigation canals (which provide almost no way out)? Just checking internet sits I read:

221 deaths of those trying to cross the Arizona desert in 2004
110 deaths in January through April in 2010 -- up 71% from the previous year.
Over 5000 deaths since 1994.

Has the fence and increase in personnel slowed illegal crossings or just created more deaths of those desperate for work?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
So humane and just treatment for the immigrant and alien among us - and that is a major public issue today - ought to be one where people of various views on other things can unite. We should join in campaigning for immigration reform, advocating health care for the poor immigrants, encouraging laws that reunite families, and "protecting marriage" by opposing immigration laws that lead to phony unions.
So who sees this humble correspondent, Pastor Stoffregen, Pastor McCain, Mr. Erdner and almost everyone else here side by side on the demonstration line for immigration reform and walking the halls of Congress advocating health care for the children of undocumented aliens?

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2010, 01:21:33 PM »
I'll gladly join you on that line, Charles, if you join me on the picket line protesting Roe v. Wade and the murder of unborn children. Deal?

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2010, 01:25:58 PM »
So save your cynical accusations, snide remarks, and axe-grinding for some topic that doesn't involve life and death for the most helpless among us.

Mike Bennett

How are the Mexican drug-smuggling cartels "the most helpless among us"?

Most of the 9/11 hijackers were also in the country illegally.

This is not what the Commission stated in their official report (emphasis added).


Obtaining visas fraudulently is illegal. Overstaying the term of one's visa is also illegal. They might not have snuck across the border illegally as wetbacks, but it is just as illegal to get through a legal checkpoint by fraud as it is to swim across the Rio Grande.


It is probable that there are some aliens here who come with malicious intent.  But to suggest that most or the majority are here for the purposes of criminal enterprise or the drug trade is slanderous; to tar all with the same brush is unjust.  
People who are here simply to earn their daily bread should not in anyway be equated with those whose purpose is murder and mayhem.  
In order to protect ourselves from the latter, we should not create legislation that is indifferent to its adverse impact on the former .  
The former are immigrants (or perhaps only migrants--and if they are only that so what?), what they do and what they seek is not evil.  
What the latter do and seek is.
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

Charles_Austin

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2010, 01:28:09 PM »
You miss the point, Pastor McCain. (Maybe because your church body speaks so frequently of an over-arching, all-in-all, total "unity.") We can disagree on some issues and yet work together on others.
I don't insist that you agree with me on that other issue in order to work with me on health care for children of poor immigrants.
Do I have to cave in on that other issue before you will work me on immigration reform?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 01:30:33 PM by Charles_Austin »

Jim_Krauser

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2010, 01:31:04 PM »
I'll gladly join you on that line, Charles, if you join me on the picket line protesting Roe v. Wade and the murder of unborn children. Deal?

This is why we get nowhere in dialogue to finding solutions to difficult problems.
The implicit premise here is that that because you will not support me in everything, I will support you in nothing.
'Tis a pity.  Why must such support be conditioned on an "if"?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 01:32:42 PM by Jim_Krauser »
Jim Krauser

Pastor-Grace Evang. Lutheran Church, North Bellmore, NY

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #103 on: July 02, 2010, 01:46:14 PM »
Charles:

Your comment about "humane and just treatment for the immigrant and alien among us" is a wonderful sentiment. I'm simply/merely asking you to support "humane and just treatment" for the unborn children among us. That's all. I'm not asking for you to agree with me on anything uniquely Christian, actually.

So, why are you willing to protest for the rights of children of illegal immigrants, but not protest for the rights of the unborn children of those same immigrants?

PTM
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 01:49:39 PM by ptmccain »

ptmccain

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Re: Illegal Immigration and Immigration Reform
« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2010, 01:47:53 PM »
This is why we get nowhere in dialogue to finding solutions to difficult problems.
The implicit premise here is that that because you will not support me in everything, I will support you in nothing.
'Tis a pity.  Why must such support be conditioned on an "if"?

Oh, how untrue, Jim. I'm not asking for "support in everything" - that's a big red herring.

I'm simply asking that the same concern for the children of illegal immigrants be extended to concern for unborn children.

I think murdering unborn children through abortion is a major justice issue, dont you?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 02:04:17 PM by ptmccain »