Author Topic: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010  (Read 26571 times)

dkeener

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #225 on: October 21, 2010, 06:52:57 PM »

I also note that your name is conspicuous by its absence in the thread that attempts to determine or at least discuss what a denomination actually is.


You are correct in noting that I don't have an opinion on everything - nor should anyone else. (But that's just my opinion)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:54:42 PM by dkeener »

George Erdner

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #226 on: October 21, 2010, 08:52:32 PM »

I also note that your name is conspicuous by its absence in the thread that attempts to determine or at least discuss what a denomination actually is.


You are correct in noting that I don't have an opinion on everything - nor should anyone else. (But that's just my opinion)

I won't dispute that you don't have an opinion on everything, but since you expressed your opinion in this thread about the relationship between a pastor and the denomination that he is affiliated with, then that is an indication that you do have an opinion on what a denomination is or isn't. But that's not so much an opinion as an extrapolation from evidence.

Maryland Brian

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #227 on: October 21, 2010, 09:40:29 PM »

I won't dispute that you don't have an opinion on everything, but since you expressed your opinion in this thread about the relationship between a pastor and the denomination that he is affiliated with, then that is an indication that you do have an opinion on what a denomination is or isn't. But that's not so much an opinion as an extrapolation from evidence.

Meanwhile, Timmy has fallen down the well.  Tune in next week - can Lassie remember her way home?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:05:18 PM by BHHughes »

Maryland Brian

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #228 on: October 21, 2010, 09:46:21 PM »

I also note that your name is conspicuous by its absence in the thread that attempts to determine or at least discuss what a denomination actually is.


You are correct in noting that I don't have an opinion on everything - nor should anyone else. (But that's just my opinion)

  So what's your opinion on toy poodles?  Ridiculous kennel filler and creator of backyard poop bombs or friend of seasoned citizens with bad eyesight and worse breath?

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #229 on: October 21, 2010, 11:25:33 PM »
Not that I hold any particular wisdom around here, but my advice is for all of us to quit responding to George completely for a time.  I don't know what drives him to have these endless longer than long posts, but I am getting weary of even scrolling by them. 

You're probably a great guy, George, but give it a break.  Go silent for awhile.  It will be good for your soul.

dkeener

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #230 on: October 22, 2010, 12:11:13 AM »

I also note that your name is conspicuous by its absence in the thread that attempts to determine or at least discuss what a denomination actually is.


You are correct in noting that I don't have an opinion on everything - nor should anyone else. (But that's just my opinion)


  So what's your opinion on toy poodles?  Ridiculous kennel filler and creator of backyard poop bombs or friend of seasoned citizens with bad eyesight and worse breath?


Personally I'd take neurotic German Short Haired Pointer to a toy poodle any day. But then I own a Maltese who thinks he's a guard dog and a Great Dane who thinks she's a lap dog - so what do I know. Anyway it's nice to have you back Brian.

Dave Benke

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #231 on: October 29, 2010, 09:39:13 PM »
We just got a memo that 12 positions at LCMS HQ have been eliminated as part of the restructuring process as the new adminstrative team grapples with the resource changes and who's left to do what with whom.  I was with someone from the ELCA yesterday, and it sounds to me as though the end result of the ELCA restructuring and position-dropping is that there will be a national and an international board, very much like the plan undertaken under the auspices of past President Kieschnick and affirmed at the Missouri convention. 

This was a very brief memo, and I'm sure there will be a more comprehensive explanation of what's cooking over the next week or so.

Dave Benke

jrubyaz

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #232 on: October 30, 2010, 09:03:00 PM »

Interesting. How many overall will lose jobs in the restructuring?

Jeff Ruby

We just got a memo that 12 positions at LCMS HQ have been eliminated as part of the restructuring process as the new adminstrative team grapples with the resource changes and who's left to do what with whom.  I was with someone from the ELCA yesterday, and it sounds to me as though the end result of the ELCA restructuring and position-dropping is that there will be a national and an international board, very much like the plan undertaken under the auspices of past President Kieschnick and affirmed at the Missouri convention. 

This was a very brief memo, and I'm sure there will be a more comprehensive explanation of what's cooking over the next week or so.

Dave Benke

Scott6

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #233 on: October 30, 2010, 09:17:46 PM »

Interesting. How many overall will lose jobs in the restructuring?

Jeff Ruby

We just got a memo that 12 positions at LCMS HQ have been eliminated as part of the restructuring process as the new adminstrative team grapples with the resource changes and who's left to do what with whom.  I was with someone from the ELCA yesterday, and it sounds to me as though the end result of the ELCA restructuring and position-dropping is that there will be a national and an international board, very much like the plan undertaken under the auspices of past President Kieschnick and affirmed at the Missouri convention. 

This was a very brief memo, and I'm sure there will be a more comprehensive explanation of what's cooking over the next week or so.

Dave Benke

If memory serves, the number given at the convention was 45 full-time equivalent positions.  I'd look it up on the convention thread, but alas -- I'm too lazy.

LutherMan

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #234 on: October 31, 2010, 12:59:27 AM »

Russ Saltzman

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #235 on: November 02, 2010, 09:56:28 AM »
The November 2010 issue of The Reporter (the declared "official newspaper of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod," thereby distinguishing itself from the other "unofficial" newspaper) reports a small decline in synod membership (25,000 is small?) and a "slight reversal" of the 2008 decline in financial giving.

In short, despite the economy, LCMS giving increased. These are 2009 figures.

This suggests - to me at any rate - the ELCA financial decline that fast-tracked beginning post-August 2009 is related less to the economy and more to the theological dispute resulting from the ELCA actions taken related to sexuality.

Meanwhile, the editor of the ELCA's official magazine (The Lutheran, if you need reminding, November issue) is conceding a 300-congregation loss (from 10,300) by end of year, 2010. I do not think that will be the final figure nor the final year of losses from the congregational roster.

I am not gloating over ELCA losses. Many spent energy and treasure bringing the ELCA into existence and I can only look on all this with sorrow.

But it is a judgment, I think.

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Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #236 on: November 02, 2010, 01:27:24 PM »
And it will be easy to determine at least part of the financial impact. Just take the mission support figures (BTW, we haven't called it "benevolence" for 20 years) from the congregations that withdraw and add 'em up.

dkeener

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #237 on: November 02, 2010, 01:46:56 PM »
And it will be easy to determine at least part of the financial impact. Just take the mission support figures (BTW, we haven't called it "benevolence" for 20 years) from the congregations that withdraw and add 'em up.

Sorry Charles that will tell you almost nothing. My bet is that most of the decline is to be found in congregations staying in the ELCA. It may take a 2/3 majority at two congregational meetings to leave the ELCA but it only takes a simply majority at one meeting to change the budget. Simply, counting those leaving also does not take into account the number of people who have left congregations because of the CWA decisions. Also, it does not take into account the congregations that split because they could not achieve the 2/3rds. Many of those people started LCMC or NALC mission congregations leaving the churches they left with greatly reduced budgets. And yes I realize that you said "at least part of the financial impact". My point is simply that figuring out this part is just not of much use. 

Dan Fienen

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #238 on: November 02, 2010, 02:01:35 PM »
It seems to me that to truly judge the full financial impact of CWA '09 one would have to be God or at least omniscient to sort through all the factors.  One could add up the lost payments from the congregations that left, that would tell part of the story.  One could also look at congregations that have sharply reduced giving and investigate why (division in the congregation, diversion of funds in protest, major industry leaving town, knock down drag out fight between two matriarchs in the Women's Guild, etc.).  Now you are asking for a lot of work.  God would know but His accounting department does not release figures.

Has there been an effect?  That seems very, very likely.  What is the extent - hard to determine.  Importance - of greater importance is whether the decision was in line with what God has told us in His word, and in line with God's will for His church.  There is a whole other debate.  Ultimately, if it was God's will that it be decided the way it was, the financial cost is secondary - part of the cost of doing God's business which is at times high - ask the original disciples.  If it was not God's will, even if there would have been a financial benefit, it should not have been done.

What is God's will in the matter?  Now there is a topic for discussion.

Dan
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:06:17 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #239 on: November 02, 2010, 02:54:07 PM »
Tim adds: The article concerning the LIFT endeavor and survey reported on in The Lutheran, which arrived yesterday shed some additional insight into the distress being experienced at the parish and the ELCA levels by at least acknowledging that the decisions of last summer are an important part of the mix, particularly among the laity.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS