Author Topic: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010  (Read 23154 times)

Dadoo

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #165 on: October 08, 2010, 12:53:11 PM »
I would venture to say that church discussions, arguments, and schisms, are always about differing interpretations of scripture and tradition.

That was manifestly not the case with respect to the actions taken regarding sexuality at the 2009 CWA.  Leading proponents of those actions expressly rejected the notion that the ELCA was bound by Scripture.

Examples? Journey Together Faithfully -- part 3 was a study of Galatians called: "Free in Christ to Serve the Neighbor: Lutherans Talk about Human Sexuality." There were background essays on biblical texts that were part of the resources available for folks discussing the issue.

I would agree that the ELCA is not bound by some traditional interpretations of scriptures. That's been part of our history since Luther's time. The marriage of priests, retaining clergy who had been married a second time, the ordination of women, the elimination (in some places) of weekly communion, open communion (officially in the ELCA, but also practiced by some LCMSers) are some of the ways that Lutherans went against traditional interpretations of scriptures.


The marriage of priests is not a Lutheran innovation or a matter if Lutherans going against the traditional interpretation of scripture. It is the restoration of the original practice (St. Peter was married . . . ).

Leadership of women was not a Lutheran idea either. It goes back to the New Testament where women in leadership position are commended by St. Paul.

The elimination of weekly communion was not a Lutheran innovation but a Lutheran heresy when it was defended on supposed biblical or confessional grounds.

The ELCA does not practice "open communion." We practice "Eucharistic hospitality." That is to say that we have limits to who we will commune.

Luther and Lutherans are not "innovation engines" and were never meant to be such, divorce and remarriage being a difficult subject to parse either way and therefore not proof of inovation or other.

Quote
Quote
And the CWA expressly admitted that it was acted against tradition.

Yes, we stated that for those who include same-gender committed relationships under the term "marriage" "differs from the historic Christian tradition
and the Lutheran Confessions" of that term. It doesn't say that we were "going against" that tradition. At the same time, we also recognize that the term "marriage" is being used by a few states for the publicly accountable and legal relationship that same-gender couples may enter -- and their use of the term differs from the traditional way societies have used "marriage".


It might not say "we are going against" tradition, but it does say that we realize that we are departing from 2000 years of continued use of the term marriage among Christians. Same difference.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 01:47:11 PM by Dadoo »
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Dadoo

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #166 on: October 08, 2010, 12:55:36 PM »
Lutherman has started a thread about the latest press release from ELCA concerning the Secretatries report on restructuring. I note, with distress, that there seems to be little streamlining or cost saving going on in the proposal as presented.
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Scott6

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #167 on: October 08, 2010, 12:59:12 PM »
Leadership of women was not a Lutheran idea either. It goes back to the New Testament where women in leadership position are commended by St. Paul.

"Leadership of women" is a bit of a murky term, methinks.  The idea of the ordination or otherwise recognizing them as occupying the office of presbyter / episkopes is certainly an innovation.

James_Gale

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #168 on: October 08, 2010, 01:25:01 PM »
I would venture to say that church discussions, arguments, and schisms, are always about differing interpretations of scripture and tradition.

That was manifestly not the case with respect to the actions taken regarding sexuality at the 2009 CWA.  Leading proponents of those actions expressly rejected the notion that the ELCA was bound by Scripture.
Examples?

We've been over this many, many times.  Bishop Chilstrom and Bishop Erdahl are two prominent leaders who rejected the notion that the ELCA is bound by Scripture.  Also, speakers at the CWA expressly argued that we ought not be bound by what "some guy wrote 2000 years ago."

I'm not sure why you keep taking us through this conversation.  Again.  And again.  And again.  Repeating wrong facts does not transform them into truths.

jpetty

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #169 on: October 08, 2010, 01:28:12 PM »
...

I would agree that the ELCA is not bound by some traditional interpretations of scriptures. That's been part of our history since Luther's time. The marriage of priests,

Why do you keep using this false example?  Do you honestly not realize that this was a return to tradition, a reversal of a revision, that took place? Or, Heaven forbid, you simply keep using this example because you know that the common reader will not know that it is a return to Tradition and thus you hope that they might be convinced by your false example into thinking the Lutheran fathers would agree with the rest of what you are saying?

I don't think trying to paint Luther as a great traditionist will work.  He directly defied papal authority, which, at that time, had been "tradition" for seven or eight hundred years.  He threw a good bit of tradition overboard, and he did it on the basis of his own freedom of inquiry.



DCharlton

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #170 on: October 08, 2010, 01:34:32 PM »
dcharlton writes:
I just cannot accept your authoritarian interpretation of my ordination and installation vows.  Of course I should abide by the policies of the ELCA or be prepared to face discipline.

I comment:
Good. We agree on that.
The model constitution for ELCA congregations says (see emphasis added):
*C9.03. Consistent with the faith and practice of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America,
    a. Every ordained minister shall:
        1)preach the Word;
        2) administer the sacraments;
        3)conduct public worship;
        4) provide pastoral care; and
        5) speak publicly to the world in solidarity with the poor and oppressed, calling for justice and proclaiming God’s love for the world.
    c. Every pastor shall:
        1)strive to extend the Kingdom of God in the community, in the nation, and abroad;
        2)seek out and encourage qualified persons to prepare for the ministry of the Gospel;
        3)impart knowledge of this church and its wider ministry through distribution of its periodicals and other publications; and
        4)endeavor to increase the support given by the congregation to the work of the churchwide organization of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and of the (insert name of synod) Synod of the ELCA.


If someone cannot do that without violating their conscience, then I think they have a decision to make. People can disagree with ELCA policies and work to change them while at the same time being faithful in supporting the broader mission of the ELCA.
Our public ministries do not belong to us as individuals, they are given to us by a particular segment of the church, and are exercised within a particular segment of the church. If ordained in the ELCA, I decide that the ELCA is a heretical, apostate institution, and that its leaders are promoting worship of another god, and that its processes are so corrupt as to be unconscionable, then the ELCA has the right to say to be: "You are no longer a pastor in the ELCA."
I think this business about our ordinations being to the "Church" or some heavenly ideal of Church and not to a place where we are subject to oversight and discipline is thoroughly un-Lutheran.

As long as you allow some middle ground between being a sycophant and undermining the ELCA (either openly or passive-agressively), then we agree.
David Charlton  

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Dadoo

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #171 on: October 08, 2010, 01:40:20 PM »
Leadership of women was not a Lutheran idea either. It goes back to the New Testament where women in leadership position are commended by St. Paul.

"Leadership of women" is a bit of a murky term, methinks.  The idea of the ordination or otherwise recognizing them as occupying the office of presbyter / episkopes is certainly an innovation.

We can go that route if you like. I note here that the innovation was neither Luther's innovation or a Lutheran innovation. For one thing, not all of Lutherandom embraced it. For another, women's ordination had been introduced by reformed, not Lutheran, offshoots of the 16th century  over 100  years earlier by the time the left side of Lutherans embraced it. In time, the innovation is less than 200 years old. As some like to say: In another 500 years we will look back and say, "What were they thinking."
Peter Kruse

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Dadoo

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #172 on: October 08, 2010, 01:42:12 PM »
...

I would agree that the ELCA is not bound by some traditional interpretations of scriptures. That's been part of our history since Luther's time. The marriage of priests,

Why do you keep using this false example?  Do you honestly not realize that this was a return to tradition, a reversal of a revision, that took place? Or, Heaven forbid, you simply keep using this example because you know that the common reader will not know that it is a return to Tradition and thus you hope that they might be convinced by your false example into thinking the Lutheran fathers would agree with the rest of what you are saying?

I don't think trying to paint Luther as a great traditionist will work.  He directly defied papal authority, which, at that time, had been "tradition" for seven or eight hundred years.  He threw a good bit of tradition overboard, and he did it on the basis of his own freedom of inquiry.




Like . . . what exactly?

And, "Freedom of inquiry?" Where is Luther using that category?
Peter Kruse

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James Gustafson

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #173 on: October 08, 2010, 01:59:51 PM »
...

I would agree that the ELCA is not bound by some traditional interpretations of scriptures. That's been part of our history since Luther's time. The marriage of priests,

Why do you keep using this false example?  Do you honestly not realize that this was a return to tradition, a reversal of a revision, that took place? Or, Heaven forbid, you simply keep using this example because you know that the common reader will not know that it is a return to Tradition and thus you hope that they might be convinced by your false example into thinking the Lutheran fathers would agree with the rest of what you are saying?

I don't think trying to paint Luther as a great traditionist will work.  He directly defied papal authority, which, at that time, had been "tradition" for seven or eight hundred years.  He threw a good bit of tradition overboard, and he did it on the basis of his own freedom of inquiry.

The Apostolic and Church Fathers are the authoritative sum and norm of Traditionalism, recent tradition is not Traditionalism.   Small “t” capital “T”, like church and Church.  The church tradition is not, Church Tradition.  Tradition can not be changed, it is now after the fact.  In as much as the Apostolic and Church fathers point to Christ, and the Book of Concord points to Christ, and I point at Christ and to them for explanation, we either accept them as authoritative or we do not.  In our church traditions we may not even be in compliance of Church Tradition, two different things.

The sum and norm of Tradition and Traditionalist is a completed event, the Traditionalists are dead now but alive in Christ, and alive in their writings, their co-author still our active inspiration, anyone that agrees with them is a Traditionalist too.  But anyone who disagrees with them ceases to be a Traditionalist, they may still be a traditionalist in their own sect but they have become revisionists.  It is impossible for Traditionalism to be revised or for us to modify it.  The influence of Scripture and the Church Fathers on our understanding may ebb and flow in its popularity, and it may even disappear and then reappear five hundred years later when the writings of the Apostolic and Church Fathers is viewed as authoritative and the Holy Spirit speaks through it to someone who rediscovers it, as was the case with Luther.  

It is a misunderstanding of Traditionalism to think it applies to our near history or only to our denominations etc.  And that misunderstanding is a fatal a flaw of revisionism, they are confused when they believe that we are allowed to revise Scripture and Tradition, Christ and Christ's words are eternal.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:43:54 PM by James Gustafson »

Richard Johnson

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #174 on: October 08, 2010, 02:07:25 PM »


Yes, CWA09 left it up to individual consciences to decide what is true about this particular issue -- although that approach may also work on some other issues, too; but certainly not with every issue, e.g., the doctrines in our Confession of Faith.

Unless you're herchurch, for example.
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Scott6

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #175 on: October 08, 2010, 02:26:45 PM »
Leadership of women was not a Lutheran idea either. It goes back to the New Testament where women in leadership position are commended by St. Paul.

"Leadership of women" is a bit of a murky term, methinks.  The idea of the ordination or otherwise recognizing them as occupying the office of presbyter / episkopes is certainly an innovation.

We can go that route if you like. I note here that the innovation was neither Luther's innovation or a Lutheran innovation. For one thing, not all of Lutherandom embraced it. For another, women's ordination had been introduced by reformed, not Lutheran, offshoots of the 16th century  over 100  years earlier by the time the left side of Lutherans embraced it. In time, the innovation is less than 200 years old. As some like to say: In another 500 years we will look back and say, "What were they thinking."

Right -- I agree that women's ordination is an innovation with a very short pedigree and cannot be attributed to Luther or Lutheranism whose tendencies were against innovation.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #176 on: October 08, 2010, 02:28:39 PM »
...

I would agree that the ELCA is not bound by some traditional interpretations of scriptures. That's been part of our history since Luther's time. The marriage of priests,

Why do you keep using this false example?  Do you honestly not realize that this was a return to tradition, a reversal of a revision, that took place? Or, Heaven forbid, you simply keep using this example because you know that the common reader will not know that it is a return to Tradition and thus you hope that they might be convinced by your false example into thinking the Lutheran fathers would agree with the rest of what you are saying?

Which tradition? Is the oldest practice always the "traditional" one? At some point in Christian history, the powers that be, determined among other things, that Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians 7 that marriage meant that one had to devote some time and energy to the spouse -- and not totally to the Lord; meant that those taking vows to the Church meant that they had to be fully devoted to the Lord and his Church -- and could not be married. (I've heard some Roman Catholic priests talk about being "married" to the church. The Church in Luther's day had its interpretation of scripture and tradition. Luther had another interpretation.

Would you not agree that celebrating communion at least weekly (if not daily) is an older and longer lasting tradition than once a month communion? Would you not agree that celebrating first communion at one's baptism, regardless of age, as the Orthodox do, is an older tradition than waiting until confirmation or completing a class in 5th grade (or younger)? Yet, even though we can show that there are older traditions than what many are used to today, it certainly isn't easy to return to those traditions. The folks today are often convinced by their interpretation of scriptures and their own tradition (two or three generations) that what they are doing is the right way.

Just ask the folks in the pew to cross themselves at the appropriate times in the liturgy -- and point out that Luther himself told us to cross ourselves in the Small Catechism.

Staring that Luther was seeking to return to an older tradition doesn't make it any easier to fight the deeply held convictions and interpretations and practices of the folks of his day any more than it is for us to return to early church practices in our congregations. It is a battle of interpretations of scriptures and traditions. Celibacy for those taking vows to the church was the tradition in Luther's day based on an interpretation of scriptures.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:34:17 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James Gustafson

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #177 on: October 08, 2010, 02:58:22 PM »
Pr. Stoffregen asks:
Would you not agree that celebrating communion at least weekly (if not daily) is an older and longer lasting tradition than once a month communion?
Yes.

Would you not agree that celebrating first communion at one's baptism, regardless of age, as the Orthodox do, is an older tradition than waiting until confirmation or completing a class in 5th grade (or younger)?
Yes

Yet, even though we can show that there are older traditions than what many are used to today, it certainly isn't easy to return to those traditions. The folks today are often convinced by their interpretation of scriptures and their own tradition (two or three generations) that what they are doing is the right way.
And they're wrong.

Just ask the folks in the pew to cross themselves at the appropriate times in the liturgy -- and point out that Luther himself told us to cross ourselves in the Small Catechism.
Then teach them to do it. 

Staring that Luther was seeking to return to an older tradition doesn't make it any easier to fight the deeply held convictions and interpretations and practices of the folks of his day any more than it is for us to return to early church practices in our congregations.
Easy is irrelevant.

It is a battle of interpretations of scriptures and traditions. Celibacy for those taking vows to the church was the tradition in Luther's day based on an interpretation of scriptures. [/]
No, one is Tradition, the other is tradition.  It's revision to change what the Apostolic and Church Fathers taught, what they established is Tradition, everything else is revision.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #178 on: October 08, 2010, 08:06:53 PM »


Yes, CWA09 left it up to individual consciences to decide what is true about this particular issue -- although that approach may also work on some other issues, too; but certainly not with every issue, e.g., the doctrines in our Confession of Faith.

Unless you're herchurch, for example.

Very, very few of us are.

(On the other hand, I've never been to a worship service at Ebenezer Lutheran in San Francisco. I have not read their constitutional confession of faith. I can't really judge what occurs there. However, I have been to worship services at Peace Lutheran in Grass Valley. I can judge what goes on there.  :))
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

LutherMan

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Re: ELCA Fiscal Crisis continues into 2010
« Reply #179 on: October 08, 2010, 08:10:59 PM »


Yes, CWA09 left it up to individual consciences to decide what is true about this particular issue -- although that approach may also work on some other issues, too; but certainly not with every issue, e.g., the doctrines in our Confession of Faith.

Unless you're herchurch, for example.

Very, very few of us are.

(On the other hand, I've never been to a worship service at Ebenezer Lutheran in San Francisco. I have not read their constitutional confession of faith. I can't really judge what occurs there. However, I have been to worship services at Peace Lutheran in Grass Valley. I can judge what goes on there.  :))
One only needs to peruse or browse their website to find all sorts of heresies and apostasies going on.
They are a filthy and unLutheran group.