Author Topic: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies  (Read 12698 times)

Pilgrim

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2010, 11:03:05 AM »
ISo you missed my comment about this being the first recorded instance of deviled ham.


Ditto Stephen's note about stopping using your notes and concerning the above, yes, thank goodness, but unfortunately stuck having to read it here. Back to taking Brian in Maryland's advice and ignoring your posts  :P
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2010, 01:22:26 PM »
So you missed my comment about this being the first recorded instance of deviled ham.


Ditto Stephen's note about stopping using your notes and concerning the above, yes, thank goodness, but unfortunately stuck having to read it here. Back to taking Brian in Maryland's advice and ignoring your posts  :P

Good. Now you won't be misunderstanding and misquoting me.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

SKPeterson

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2010, 03:14:24 PM »
I think this is a great topic -- there are so many areas that can be explored for understanding what happened and where we are, as well as rethinking and recapturing great aspects of the tradition that were lost.

For example, here are two big topics I'd love to hear some reflection on:

1) I understand that at least one of the predecessor bodies (prior to LCA) had the Histoic Episcopate or Apostolic Succession.  I've met several fine, old pastors ordained by bishops who had this excellent and now lost mark of the church.  I'm thinking it was the Augustana strand?  Maybe not, but I'd love to hear who did and why it was kabashed.

2) A great thesis, I think, could be done on the relative ecclesiologies and theologies of the ALC vs LCA - not in compettiton, just comparison.  For it seems to me I was always told that the ALC was more conservative and the LCA more liberal.  However, from historical perspective - the limited view I have -- it seems that the finer point is that, as we know, the ALC was more congregationalist and LCA more hierarchical.  As such, it seems to me and I would love to hear some discussion on this -- the ALC was actually more susceptible to cultural shifts and trends as a congregationalist polity because each congregation could, in many ways, go their own way (a bit overstated, I know, but without central authroity and oversight whose interpretaton is correct?).  The LCA, on the other hand, with its structure of bishops and some sort of palpable unity would actually slow down the integration of cultural shifts and preserve more of the tradition (truly conservative in the sense Luther and even Christ were). 

What say you?  I'm leaving for camp today, so I'll probably not have access to this discussion til Friday night, but I still would love to hear some thoughts!

To quote from George M. Stephenson's Religious Aspects of Swedish Immigration: A Study of Immigrant Churches, "the Augustana Synod was considered a daughter of the Church of Sweden, with which the latter organization had intercommunion and very intimate fellowship,"  however Stephenson highlights the oft stormy relationship between the Augustana and the Church of Sweden through which an apostolic success would have been passed on from Old World to New.  There were several Augustana pastors in the 19th Century who were ordained in the Church of Sweden, many were not.  As Stephenson also notes, "the bishops of the 'mother' church understood that the synod did not have the 'historic' episcopacy in the form it existed in Sweden and that there was no likelihood that it ever would." 

So, it's possible that an old Augustana pastor had the "historic" episopacy, but it was not evidently a widespread or required practice of the synod.

As to your second point, Stephenson sheds some light from the Augustana perspective, however, he was writing in 1932 when the synod was still quite conservative, though in fractious debate and competition with the Norwegian Synod.  Sometime after this the more liberalizing tendencies began to come more to the forefront, but I am not sure how, when, or where these became dominant and passed on to the LCA.


Pilgrim

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2010, 04:42:14 PM »
So you missed my comment about this being the first recorded instance of deviled ham.


Ditto Stephen's note about stopping using your notes and concerning the above, yes, thank goodness, but unfortunately stuck having to read it here. Back to taking Brian in Maryland's advice and ignoring your posts  :P

Good. Now you won't be misunderstanding and misquoting me.



Against my better judgment, but, what the hey, it's summertime. Cite me one example where either of the above is true. The only misunderstanding is trying to determine which side of the fence your opinion seems to be coming from at any given point in time since you are so adept at eschewing obfuscation!
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

LutherMan

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2010, 07:25:25 PM »
I seem to recall reading that a pastor was tried for heresy and disciplined in the ULCA back in the fifties, has anything like this occurred in the ELCA since it's formation?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2010, 07:40:47 PM »
I seem to recall reading that a pastor was tried for heresy and disciplined in the ULCA back in the fifties, has anything like this occurred in the ELCA since it's formation?
There was an attempt at a heresy trial in the 60's. The one accused of heresy ended up teaching at a seminary. The person trying to make a name for himself by exposing what he thought was heresy has disappeared. I heard this from the one who became a professor -- one of my professors.

A little later, there was a congregation and pastor on Long Island who were removed from the ALC for heretical teachings.

Most often in the ELCA pastors resign when confronted with misconduct rather than go through the time and expense of a "trial". While I know pastors who resigned/were removed for sexual misconduct and for financial misconduct (embezzling money from the congregation,) I don't personally know of any who have been confronted with a charge of heretical teachings -- outside of the one many years ago on Long Island.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2010, 09:17:06 PM »
I seem to recall reading that a pastor was tried for heresy and disciplined in the ULCA back in the fifties, has anything like this occurred in the ELCA since it's formation?


Pastors George Crist, Jr., and Victor K. Wrigley were convicted in heresy trials of the Northwest Synod, ULCA, in 1955.  Crist would later be the minister at a Unitarian Universalist congregation.  A third pastor, Pastor John Gerberding, was acquitted but quickly resigned when a second trial was threatened.  (This is different from those described by Pr. Stoffregen.) 

There have been no trials for heresy in the ELCA.  And when theological issues are brought up in disciplinary trials, apparently the panels are instructed to disregard such testimony, and stick with the rules.  (At least those have been the reports from trials related to homosexual pastors.)

Pax, Steven+
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2014, 01:16:25 AM »
A third pastor, Pastor John Gerberding, was acquitted but quickly resigned when a second trial was threatened.


Pastor Gerberding returned to the ministry c. 1958 when called by a Denver congregation in the Rocky Mountain Synod, ULCA.  He served into his retirement, and died last year on the ELCA roster as a retired pastor.  His death notice appeared in the April 2013 issue of The Lutheran magazine.

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John Mundinger

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2014, 07:52:49 AM »
In the late 1950's, my dad explained the LC-MS to me with, "They won't let other Lutherans" take communion with them. This was when we had moved from an (old) ALC congregation to an area that only had an LC-MS congregation, just as they were getting ready to join a ULCA mission congregation. It was after my dad had started back to attending his parents' ALC congregation instead of the ULCA congregation near where he lived because he wanted to meet the soloist at the ALC church. She eventually became my mother.

George - that might have been true of some LCMS congregations in the '50's.  It wasn't true for all of them.  And, although the percentage of LCMS congregations that still practice "close" communion is far less today, it still is not universally true today for all LCMS congregations.
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Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Richard Johnson

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2014, 11:12:50 AM »
And, although the percentage of LCMS congregations that still practice "close" communion is far less today, it still is not universally true today for all LCMS congregations.

Who keeps such a statistic?
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John_Hannah

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2014, 11:34:53 AM »
And, although the percentage of LCMS congregations that still practice "close" communion is far less today, it still is not universally true today for all LCMS congregations.

Who keeps such a statistic?

No one. It is actually rather complicated. At National Convention time, it seems that nearly every congregation practices the strictest "closed communion" and votes accordingly. Then at times when I travel around the country, it's hard to find any who do.

Peace, JOHN
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2014, 01:42:50 PM »
I seem to recall reading that a pastor was tried for heresy and disciplined in the ULCA back in the fifties, has anything like this occurred in the ELCA since it's formation?


Pastors George Crist, Jr., and Victor K. Wrigley were convicted in heresy trials of the Northwest Synod, ULCA, in 1955.  Crist would later be the minister at a Unitarian Universalist congregation.  A third pastor, Pastor John Gerberding, was acquitted but quickly resigned when a second trial was threatened.  (This is different from those described by Pr. Stoffregen.) 

There have been no trials for heresy in the ELCA.  And when theological issues are brought up in disciplinary trials, apparently the panels are instructed to disregard such testimony, and stick with the rules.  (At least those have been the reports from trials related to homosexual pastors.)


I don't know all of the details, but one of my seminary professors (ALC) was brought up on heresy charges, I think during his doctorate work - as he said it, "By another pastor who wanted to make a name for himself." The issue was the reality of the miracles. Nothing came of the charges. The Ph.D. candidate got his degree and went on to a career teaching in the seminary. The other pastor disappeared.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

LutherMan

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2014, 03:50:21 PM »
Why did the Augustana Synod not go into the new The American Lutheran Church merge of 1960?  Instead, they waited for the 1962 Lutheran Church in America merge...

Dave Likeness

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2014, 03:54:22 PM »
The Augustana Synod consisted of Swedes and
the ALC consisted of Norwegians.  So they waited
until 1962 to join their fellow Swedes in the LCA.

LutherMan

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Re: Reflections on ELCA Predecessor Church Bodies
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2014, 04:08:00 PM »
The Augustana Synod consisted of Swedes and
the ALC consisted of Norwegians.  So they waited
until 1962 to join their fellow Swedes in the LCA.
Why would that matter?  They were in fellowship with The American Lutheran Conference from 1930-1960 with the Norwegians...