Would you consider joining or working with Lutheran CORE?

[Mel Harris]

Several years ago the following was posted on a thread here:

I'm curious.  With all this talk of what it would take to finally be in such disagreement with the direction the ELCA is going that folks may consider leaving, how many people would be willing to consider the LCMS?

I'm asking especially in light of the latest Lutheran Forum Newsletter that went out where Robert Benne nicely elucidated the two sides of our schizophrenic synod.  There are folks who are quite conservative theologically (I think Peter and I, among others, are good examples of this) but aren't total jerks (just partial jerks) along with those who revel in jerkiness.

If the LCMS would not be considered a possible home, why not?

Maybe this deserves its own thread...

Lutheran CORE states that it intends to be a coalition of congregations, individual lay persons, pastors, synods, church bodies and other renewal movements.  I am starting this thread to ask whether or not you would consider joining Lutheran CORE or cooperating with Lutheran CORE in some ways.  I would also appreciate hearing any reasons why you would or would not do so.  I am particularly interested in hearing from those who are members of the LCMS, the AFLC, etc., in other words, from those who are not members of the ELCA, ELCIC or LCMC.  I think it would be helpful to me, and possibly to some others, to hear what other Lutherans are thinking about Lutheran CORE.

Thank you,

Mel Harris

[Revbert]

Several years ago the following was posted on a thread here:

I'm curious.  With all this talk of what it would take to finally be in such disagreement with the direction the ELCA is going that folks may consider leaving, how many people would be willing to consider the LCMS?

I'm asking especially in light of the latest Lutheran Forum Newsletter that went out where Robert Benne nicely elucidated the two sides of our schizophrenic synod.  There are folks who are quite conservative theologically (I think Peter and I, among others, are good examples of this) but aren't total jerks (just partial jerks) along with those who revel in jerkiness.

If the LCMS would not be considered a possible home, why not?

Maybe this deserves its own thread...

Lutheran CORE states that it intends to be a coalition of congregations, individual lay persons, pastors, synods, church bodies and other renewal movements.  I am starting this thread to ask whether or not you would consider joining Lutheran CORE or cooperating with Lutheran CORE in some ways.  I would also appreciate hearing any reasons why you would or would not do so.  I am particularly interested in hearing from those who are members of the LCMS, the AFLC, etc., in other words, from those who are not members of the ELCA, ELCIC or LCMC.  I think it would be helpful to me, and possibly to some others, to hear what other Lutherans are thinking about Lutheran CORE.

Thank you,

Mel Harris

Mel,

I am affiliated with the International Lutheran Fellowship, and not only am I an individual member of Lutheran CORE, but also the congregation and school with which I serve are members of Lutheran CORE (and the Seven Marks Society). At the request of the presiding bishop of the ILF, I serve as the ILF representative to Lutheran CORE.

From the ILF perspective, Lutheran CORE is an interesting movement, and there are some areas in which we see some real benefits in having a formal relationship (eg. education, professional development, pensions and benefits, usw.).

Art Hebbeler

[Scott6]

I am starting this thread to ask whether or not you would consider joining Lutheran CORE or cooperating with Lutheran CORE in some ways.  I would also appreciate hearing any reasons why you would or would not do so.

I could see some level of cooperation, but as much as I respect the CORE folks, I have a hard time seeing joining CORE / NALC.  One reason being that I think that by continuing to uphold women's ordination, there are the seeds of a way of reading Scripture that makes things like support for the ordination of PALMS folks difficult to avoid.

[Evangel]

{now where did that little popcorn eating smilie face go ...  }

[Keith Falk]

I am starting this thread to ask whether or not you would consider joining Lutheran CORE or cooperating with Lutheran CORE in some ways.  I would also appreciate hearing any reasons why you would or would not do so.

I could see some level of cooperation, but as much as I respect the CORE folks, I have a hard time seeing joining CORE / NALC.  One reason being that I think that by continuing to uphold women's ordination, there are the seeds of a way of reading Scripture that makes things like support for the ordination of PALMS folks difficult to avoid.

Two quick things... the first is that CORE and NALC are separate organizations.

The second, stemming from the first...

NALC is a denomination which would allow for the ordination of women.  CORE is an umbrella association for Lutheran church bodies, congregations, organizations, and individuals, some of whom will ordain women.

[Terry W Culler]

I am an AFLC pastor but I don't speak for anyone but myself.  I wish Lutheran Core well and I intend to be at their Ohio conference in August.  But I can not join because they refuse to deal up front with the central cause of the crisis in American Lutheranism--the historical critical hermeneutic.  And I find it unlikely that will change anytime soon.

But I do believe that with the formation of the ELCA the centrist position of American Lutheranism disappeared and this led to the whole American Lutheran world pushing for the extremes of either right or left. The center must reform for American Lutheranism to thrive without outright conflict. 

And so, as I said earlier, I wish the NALC and the LCMC well, but I predict continuing difficulties springing up because of failure to deal with the underlying condition.

[Team Hesse]

This question has been coming up from a number of directions lately, so I'll share my musings for the moment.  I haven't fully worked it out yet.

Our little independent congregation is asked constantly 'who are you going to affiliate with?'  It is an important question because we confess one holy Christian church, not local community of believers, and I've been in local communities where the leader/pastor(s) notions are the be-all and end-all of teaching in that community.  There is validity in that as long as the pastor is connected, collegial-wise and accountability-wise, to a broader stream of Christian tradition -- otherwise you have a cowboy stroking his own ego.  So my thoughts at the present time:

    LCMC is too individual-personality oriented.  Congregations don't have enough accountability to each other, and when push comes to shove, if there is a disagreement the argument is made "we have to trust our leaders."  It is a personality-driven organization, not a Word-driven organization.
    LCMS is probably the closest to where I personally should be, but the internal divisions and coercive power moves that occur in local congregations on up through the synodical hierarchy make affiliation here problematic.  My uncle, a retired    LCMS pastor,  steers clear of district or synod gatherings and focuses on being a teacher and preacher within his circle of influence.  The net effect is nearly the same as attempting to be a faithful pastor in an indepenent congregation, picking and choosing where he finds accountability and collegiality. 
    AFLC is where my daughter and son-in-law are currently, and I have people there I consider friends and colleagues.  But they tend to be a little strong, like the ELS synod, on the idea that forgiveness follows repentance, failing to grasp the full meaning of the bondage of the will.
    NALC -- I've promised myself I will never again submit to a bishop-led church.  The word has become so freighted with coercive and power language from the Roman Catholic tradition that it is unusable in the Biblical sense -- servant of the servants.
    So at this time I'm part of Augsburg Lutheran Churches, a micro-mini synod of fellow travelers looking for a place to rest.  We (ALC) are members of Lutheran CORE, hoping to find a larger platform to share our message within.  We see ourselves as a mid-point between the congregational extreme of LCMC and the episcopal extreme of NALC.

So there ya have it -- roadkill.  From both sides. 
I tell my congregation regularly the next 5 years could see a major re-configuration of North American Lutheranism, particularly if the Baptist-tending wing of the LCMS can't stay in fellowship with the Catholic wing of same.

Musings from the pig pen on a rainy day.  Now, please be kind...
Lou

[Marshall_Hahn]

I am an AFLC pastor but I don't speak for anyone but myself.  I wish Lutheran Core well and I intend to be at their Ohio conference in August.  But I can not join because they refuse to deal up front with the central cause of the crisis in American Lutheranism--the historical critical hermeneutic.  And I find it unlikely that will change anytime soon.

But I do believe that with the formation of the ELCA the centrist position of American Lutheranism disappeared and this led to the whole American Lutheran world pushing for the extremes of either right or left. The center must reform for American Lutheranism to thrive without outright conflict. 

And so, as I said earlier, I wish the NALC and the LCMC well, but I predict continuing difficulties springing up because of failure to deal with the underlying condition.

Pastor Culler, you raise an important point.  As a member of Lutheran CORE, however, I am more optimisitic than you on the possibility of dealing with the hermeneutical question.  In fact, I believe it will be more likely to be dealt with within Lutheran CORE than it has been within the ELCA.  Too many within the ELCA have become captive to an ideological hermeneutic of one stripe or another which uses the historical critical hermeneutic to further these ends - feminism, the gay agenda, to name just a couple.  Those such as Dr. Karl Donfried or Dr. Benne who call for a critical reevaluation of the historical critical hermeneutic have been largely sidelined in the ELCA - others, all but blacklisted.  I have hopes that Lutheran CORE may find a way to break out of the straightjacket of an uncritical acceptance of the historical critical methodology.  However, if you are looking for an uncritical rejection of historical criticism, I do not expect that either, and would not support such a move.  Although, even that position I do not believe will be categorically rejected.  In other words, my exposure to Lutheran CORE leaders and theologians leads me to expect a far more open debate on this question - under the guidance of the Lutheran confessional tradition!

Marshall Hahn

[Revbert]

Interesting comments here regarding hermeneutics and women's ordination. The ILF does ordain women to the diaconate, but not as presbyters or bishops. In my conversations leading up to deciding to go to the ILF, I learned that the opinions on WO are all over the map, from "never, never, ever!" to "I don't have an issue with it, but I know my wife would never attend a church with a woman pastor."

Would I prefer to see women pastors and bishops? Sure. Can I make a theological and scriptural case for and against WO? Yes, even if some here might not accept one side or other of the argument.

So, why the ILF?  How about a place for those Lutherans who are EC and don't require, or want, the ordination of women, for one group of folks.

Before I get flamed, remember this comment is about 6 lines and took 3 minutes to type. It is not a full and complete personal or official ILF theological position. Those are reserved for deeper conversations over a beverage 


Art Hebbeler

[George Erdner]

I signed up. I'd like to convince my congregation to join CORE, even if they remain in the ELCA. But, I won't just throw out a motion at a Council meeting to stir things up and end up causing more dissent and division than anything else. I'll bide my time and engage in quiet, subtle persuasion, and pray God leads people back towards scripture and away from the revisionist heresy.

[Timotheus Verinus]

....  I think it would be helpful to me, and possibly to some others, to hear what other Lutherans are thinking about Lutheran CORE.

Thank you,

Mel Harris

I'll take a stab if you take this as purely personal experience and opinion, not reflecting any official TAALC positions,(or LCMS) and that the landscape is very fluid. So my first thoughts.

1. The landscape is fluid. I don't know how this could unfold without LCMC/CORE stepping up to the plate. I don't think anyone, not even LCMS is ready, or really able, to absorb ?? pick a number? 500 congregatons in a short time that this is happening. That means two things, I deeply respect those in CORE for being willing to to say yes when they really don't know what they are saying yes to. and two they are in my prayers.

2. Historical record and experience with shifts like this virtually guarantees that ?? pick a year?? in 3-5 years there will be a doctrinal conflict. I expect CORE in 5 years to be struggling with the "green carpet group" versus the "red carpet group." The bad news is that is almost certain. The good news is that associations have worked through those in the past and come out healthy. I think most of us are sort of waiting for that to shake out.

3. I am going to say that those coming from ELCA do not really yet appreciate the big three issues that preceded this, coming out of hermeneuttic..
a. Ecclesiastical. Most of us are not ecumenical in the spiirit the ELCA has anchored in. We are, even LCMS, very congregational by any former ELCA standard. So we start looking at the faith and doctrine we know locally and then look to see whether that confession is also in another place. If it is, we embrace fellowship. We don't try, by and large, to fit square pegs in round holes, just because the peg has to go in there.
b. Eucharistic discipline and responsible stewardship. Altar fellowship is important to us, however our practice may reflect it. ELCA has become accustomed to having Presbyterian/UCC Pastors preside over a half Episcopalian congregation that calls itself a Lutheran Church as Mormons come to the altar. uuuh we don't.
c. Women's Ordination. While many of us are striving to encourage and provide for full partnership in the Gospel, that does not include women as Presiding "Pastors." Endorsement of Chaplains or Diaconate Ministers should not be seen as over coming this. We embrace the individual women in love, and treasure their active service, not the broken doctrine.

3. Summary - CORE will have to take a formal position on these, assuming, as I do, they are rejecting Historical Critical Scriptural Hermeneutic received from the ELCA. There is a danger of it becoming ELCA, without the LGBT thing.

4, "Work with" definition. Many of my dearest ELCA friends and partners in the Gospel are attaching themselves to CORE. Individually they embrace confessional positions on the above issues, but still maintain a "you do your thing" and "I don't see that as serious." They respect my stand in common ministries, and do not push ELCA agendas. So I already work with them on some level. I don't see that changing. ...  ELCA on the other hand,...I don't know ,,,  it is a struggle, and may not happen. I wish the pro-ELCA folks could really understand that. They really are destroying ministries with this decision. In a nutshell, I am hopeful, and expect work with CORE pastors and congregations, at this point.

Summary having been in LCMS some time, now with The AALC, gentler in spirit.
- I have deep respect and pray regularly for CORE.  I hope to be able to join in joint ministry activities with them. I have more affinity to the old ALC pastors, that I see on the road to coming home, trying to forget the whole ELCA experiment. But I also know many pockets of confessional LCA types (ie. Saxe Gotha SC)

I respect you, ... fear for your short term trials, .... and pray for your people and leaders. Of course, my opinion, is you should just "come home" to The AALC, but as above I don't know if we (or LCMS or AFLC or) can structurally bring in hundreds over night. Meanwhile I think all of us are welcoming those who do come to us, instead of joining LCMC, as expediciously and responsibly as we can. If you can do that, I will tell you it is blessing, The Elephant just leaves room, and shoulders are lightened. But at max response I still see a need for CORE et al, to be the safe landing place to sort it out. If you already have sorted it out and share our confessions, come on over . I think LCMS and AFLC would say the same thing.

TV

[Scott6]

Pastor Culler, you raise an important point.  As a member of Lutheran CORE, however, I am more optimisitic than you on the possibility of dealing with the hermeneutical question.  In fact, I believe it will be more likely to be dealt with within Lutheran CORE than it has been within the ELCA.  Too many within the ELCA have become captive to an ideological hermeneutic of one stripe or another which uses the historical critical hermeneutic to further these ends - feminism, the gay agenda, to name just a couple.  Those such as Dr. Karl Donfried or Dr. Benne who call for a critical reevaluation of the historical critical hermeneutic have been largely sidelined in the ELCA - others, all but blacklisted.  I have hopes that Lutheran CORE may find a way to break out of the straightjacket of an uncritical acceptance of the historical critical methodology.  However, if you are looking for an uncritical rejection of historical criticism, I do not expect that either, and would not support such a move.  Although, even that position I do not believe will be categorically rejected.  In other words, my exposure to Lutheran CORE leaders and theologians leads me to expect a far more open debate on this question - under the guidance of the Lutheran confessional tradition!

Marshall Hahn

I note that speakers at the Ohio conference will be talking about authority and other hermeneutical questions (I'm considering making the pilgrimage to attend).  How open is CORE to re-consideration of approaches to Scripture that authorize the ordination of women?  How about NALC?

[Timotheus Verinus]

I note that speakers at the Ohio conference will be talking about authority and other hermeneutical questions (I'm considering making the pilgrimage to attend).  How open is CORE to re-consideration of approaches to Scripture that authorize the ordination of women?  How about NALC?

That really is the issue before CORE/WA/LCMC/NALC and resolution may be defered for charity purposes. The second, closely related, is not inconsequential for LCMC/NALC. The infancy of the pastoral formation/certification and call processes will need to be built from the ground up. In general we are dealing with individual pastors right now and not "organizations." I know and have great respect for some pastors among the community, but for congregations and general we "join with, work with a Group" like CORE, it is unknown. A great example, for congregations to consider. The congregation I serve now had great confidence and faith in their pastor of 20+ years. But he left for another calling. That day, the Association had available, faithful pastors in interim, whose confession they could trust, and a waiting process for available pastors down the road, whose formation is known. The simple fact is CORE/WA/LCMC/NALC cannot say, "your vacancy/interim will be trained by the trusted XYZ Seminary, with professors. all of whom we know and trust, and we will give you a truly vetted call list to consider."

That evolution will not. cannot happen over night. LCMS has a resolution on the table to kick Deacon/SMP down the road till 2013. They have been working on it a decade. They have solid seminaries, and enviable technological resources and libraries. CORE/WA/LCMC/NALC will not be able to do it any quicker than LCMS has done in this one area.

We will be dealing with individual pastors and confessions for some time.

TV

[Revbert]

I note that speakers at the Ohio conference will be talking about authority and other hermeneutical questions (I'm considering making the pilgrimage to attend).  How open is CORE to re-consideration of approaches to Scripture that authorize the ordination of women?  How about NALC?

Scott,

Given that my good friend, Erma Wolfe, is the vice chair at present of the CORE steering committee, and many LCMC congregations already have women pastors, I don't think that reconsideration will be a hot topic (my opinion). And, looking at the list of some 200 churches which have or will be voting to leave, and the number of women pastors on that list, I wouldn't expect it in the NALC, either.

But, this is just my guess.

Art

[Scott6]

I note that speakers at the Ohio conference will be talking about authority and other hermeneutical questions (I'm considering making the pilgrimage to attend).  How open is CORE to re-consideration of approaches to Scripture that authorize the ordination of women?  How about NALC?

Scott,

Given that my good friend, Erma Wolfe, is the vice chair at present of the CORE steering committee, and many LCMC congregations already have women pastors, I don't think that reconsideration will be a hot topic (my opinion). And, looking at the list of some 200 churches which have or will be voting to leave, and the number of women pastors on that list, I wouldn't expect it in the NALC, either.

But, this is just my guess.

Art

That's my feeling as well, at least from the distance I'm at.  FWIW, I used to support women's ordination (in the mid to late 1990s) but had my mind changed not through any discussion of that particular topic but rather through an appreciation of an alternative hermeneutical approach.  Which is also why I'm not so much interested in discussing women's ordination as an issue in itself but rather focusing upon how Scripture is to be read in the church.