Poll

If you had your choice, would women serve as president or elder, if that office had no authority over the pastor

elder
0 (0%)
president
4 (14.3%)
both
9 (32.1%)
neither
15 (53.6%)
we don't have either office and we don't need em
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: Like WWeedon's Pole on Women Serving.. but different (LCMS only respond please!  (Read 1245 times)

pr dtp

  • Guest
Noting that Pr. Weedon's was based in the situation at hand, and noting the differentials, I wonder about what we would do, if we were redoing our by-laws and had the option.

NOTE - I already made the assumption tat the roles would not have authority over the pastoral office.  And use te following definitions please

Elder - serves as an assistant to the pastor providing care for people and teaching under his guidance (under the pastor's direction)

President - coordinates the kingdom of the left aspects of the community, and again, not countering the pastor's understanding of ministry

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Interesting question. If a woman is on the finance committee that determines the salary of the pastor, is that exercising authority over him?

pr dtp

  • Guest
Pr. J & S,

I answered your question.  I am interested in your answer to this one.

Outside of the arguable province of the voters' assembly in which authority is quite diffused, do you believe that a woman should be able to serve as a member of a board of elders or similar accountability structure for the pastor?

Why or why not?

Mike

Mike,

Simply put, I do not see the elders having responsibility for the pastor in any form other than being able to ask - where is that in scripture and the confessions?  The district president and the CC should be holding the pastor accountable for the doctrine, even so - doing that within the concept of pastoral care, not dictatorial authority. 

As to women elders, I would submit that women who act as DCE's, Choir Director's, Women Ministry Leaders, etc, are in fact working within the same concept as the a-biblical (not anti - a) elder that we have in many of our churches, except that they do not assist in distribution. 

They are delegated responsibility from the pastoral office,

Dave Benke

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My opinion is that there should be no subcommittee in charge of the oversight of the pastoral office.  That belongs to the voters' assembly as a group.  The assembly can and should ask for regular reports, including usage of time according to the specifics of the Divine Call.  Having "elders" who are actually spiritually responsible for the pastor is inside out.  Having a pastor who does not report regularly to the assembly/council is upside down.

Dave Benke

pr dtp

  • Guest
Pr. J & S,

I answered your question.  I am interested in your answer to this one.

Outside of the arguable province of the voters' assembly in which authority is quite diffused, do you believe that a woman should be able to serve as a member of a board of elders or similar accountability structure for the pastor?

Why or why not?

Mike

Mike,

Simply put, I do not see the elders having responsibility for the pastor in any form other than being able to ask - where is that in scripture and the confessions?  The district president and the CC should be holding the pastor accountable for the doctrine, even so - doing that within the concept of pastoral care, not dictatorial authority. 

As to women elders, I would submit that women who act as DCE's, Choir Director's, Women Ministry Leaders, etc, are in fact working within the same concept as the a-biblical (not anti - a) elder that we have in many of our churches, except that they do not assist in distribution. 

They are delegated responsibility from the pastoral office,

Thanks.

This seems to suggest that you see no reason for any accountability structure for the pastor to be placed within a congregation.  Accountability is only to the CC and DP.

Which if my impression is correct may explain a lot about those you disagree with because they see the church as most fully expressed in the local congregation and synod as only an advisory human institution.  By simple virtue of belonging to the LCMS, they must be accountable to the CC and DP, but they see their primary accountability to be within the congregation.

Yes, doctrine of church and ministry will indeed need to be a large component of the Koinonia Project discussions with plenty of study of Walther and Loehe.

Mike

Mike,

Look at our polity closer.  If a Pastor is teaching falsely - who makes the final judgment on that teaching per our by-laws?  Do the elders discipline him?  Or does the synod?  Who has the responsibility of revoking a call, or a position on the roster?

Elders are often entrusted with seeing the Pastor is teaching correctly, but what authority do they have, if he is not?  Who does?



swbohler

  • Guest
Could the title of this thread be corrected?  It is not "pole" but "poll".  When I first saw the thread title I wondered if Rev. Weedon had erected some sort of Asherah pole in his church!!!

pr dtp

  • Guest
Could the title of this thread be corrected?  It is not "pole" but "poll".  When I first saw the thread title I wondered if Rev. Weedon had erected some sort of Asherah pole in his church!!!

It attracts attention... (see it got yours..)  sorta like that Vegas-like Neon cross     :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

pr dtp

  • Guest
Could the title of this thread be corrected?  It is not "pole" but "poll".  When I first saw the thread title I wondered if Rev. Weedon had erected some sort of Asherah pole in his church!!!

Yeah, it can. Like this.

I did it once, but I forget to do that when I make responses that aren't quotes.

Mike

You did an Asherah Pole???

pr dtp

  • Guest
Could the title of this thread be corrected?  It is not "pole" but "poll".  When I first saw the thread title I wondered if Rev. Weedon had erected some sort of Asherah pole in his church!!!

Yeah, it can. Like this.

I did it once, but I forget to do that when I make responses that aren't quotes.

Mike

You did an Asherah Pole???

I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot-you-know-what.  :D

Mike

Well since you didn't adamantly deny that you once did it or stopped doing it, I can imagine that there should be a article in CN-style about the weak response hiding something in the heart of Texas Confessional Lutheran laity..and tolerated by certain websites of their moderators...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Karl Hess

  • Guest
Please, guys.  Unlike Herman Otten, I can't fulfill the duties of my office and write a broadsheet detailing your heresies at the same time.

pr dtp

  • Guest
Please, guys.  Unlike Herman Otten, I can't fulfill the duties of my office and write a broadsheet detailing your heresies at the same time.

My heresies?  I'm just heterodox - it's the hyper-euros that like Bonhoeffer and the ESV that are heretics...   ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

tcs

  • Guest
Please, guys.  Unlike Herman Otten, I can't fulfill the duties of my office and write a broadsheet detailing your heresies at the same time.

My heresies?  I'm just heterodox - it's the hyper-euros that like Bonhoeffer and the ESV that are heretics...   ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I don't like Bonhoeffer and I like the NASB.

Revbert

  • Guest
I'm not going to play in the poll, but I'll offer this POV from another Lutheran body...

In the Lutheran Church-International (International Lutheran Fellowship), women may serve in any position or office, except that of presbyter or bishop. Yes, we do ordain women to the diaconate, and we also recognize the lay office of deaconess (our immediate past vice president was a deaconess, in fact).

At our 2010 Synod, there was a rather "energetic" debate on this issue of the ordination of women as presbyters. While one deacon took a very public stand that it should be permitted, there was a strong opinion by others that it would be the worst thing in the world.

So, my dear Missouri friends, you aren't the only ones who struggle with this issue. You are in my prayers.  If we can ever find a right answer to this one, we'll let you know  ;)

pr dtp

  • Guest
I'm not going to play in the poll, but I'll offer this POV from another Lutheran body...

In the Lutheran Church-International (International Lutheran Fellowship), women may serve in any position or office, except that of presbyter or bishop. Yes, we do ordain women to the diaconate, and we also recognize the lay office of deaconess (our immediate past vice president was a deaconess, in fact).

At our 2010 Synod, there was a rather "energetic" debate on this issue of the ordination of women as presbyters. While one deacon took a very public stand that it should be permitted, there was a strong opinion by others that it would be the worst thing in the world.

So, my dear Missouri friends, you aren't the only ones who struggle with this issue. You are in my prayers.  If we can ever find a right answer to this one, we'll let you know  ;)

Curious  - what do those in your diaconal office do, under the authority of, and delegated by the pastor?

Revbert

  • Guest
I'm not going to play in the poll, but I'll offer this POV from another Lutheran body...

In the Lutheran Church-International (International Lutheran Fellowship), women may serve in any position or office, except that of presbyter or bishop. Yes, we do ordain women to the diaconate, and we also recognize the lay office of deaconess (our immediate past vice president was a deaconess, in fact).

At our 2010 Synod, there was a rather "energetic" debate on this issue of the ordination of women as presbyters. While one deacon took a very public stand that it should be permitted, there was a strong opinion by others that it would be the worst thing in the world.

So, my dear Missouri friends, you aren't the only ones who struggle with this issue. You are in my prayers.  If we can ever find a right answer to this one, we'll let you know  ;)

Curious  - what do those in your diaconal office do, under the authority of, and delegated by the pastor?


Varies by location and call. Some deacons serve in parish settings and perform more liturgical functions (gospeller, assisting minister, etc). Some are in specialized ministries and work in areas such as visitation, chaplaincy, etc.  Deacons are technically under the supervision of the bishop of the diocese, but serve parishes under direction supervision of the parish pastor.

At present, my parish has no deacons.