Author Topic: Holy or Maundy?  (Read 1354 times)

mqll

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Holy or Maundy?
« on: April 01, 2010, 03:18:47 PM »
So, check it our dog--the Let Us Pray of the LCMS has today listed as Holy Thursday. I'm sorta interested by this. I've grown up with the term Maundy Thursday and use it continually--even as I continually need to educate others as to what "Maundy" actually means.

Which is to say, there is a part of me which is all in favor of dropping the term. Everything about it rubs me the wrong way--to simply and sterotype me, it rubs the CoWo, "Why use liturgical, churchy jargon when you can use plain English and explain things better?" part of me the wrong way.

1. It emphasizes the legalistic aspect of Christ and not the gracious--I mean, "mandate" to celebrate the institution of the Lord's Supper?
2. Or to focus on the mandate of the new commandment as opposed to the institution of the Lord's Supper?
3. And simply a word that needs to be explained. The guy asking me the other day was a long term Lutheran.

The funny thing is, of course, when I ask myself why I used the term, the answer is simple: tradition. Gets the best of us...

So, what is the division of this amongst the crowds? What is the proper term to use? What would best describe today for you?

Whatever we call it, maybe all of us have a blessed celebration tonight.

edoughty

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 03:36:03 PM »
So, check it our dog--the Let Us Pray of the LCMS has today listed as Holy Thursday. I'm sorta interested by this. I've grown up with the term Maundy Thursday and use it continually--even as I continually need to educate others as to what "Maundy" actually means.

Which is to say, there is a part of me which is all in favor of dropping the term. Everything about it rubs me the wrong way--to simply and sterotype me, it rubs the CoWo, "Why use liturgical, churchy jargon when you can use plain English and explain things better?" part of me the wrong way.

1. It emphasizes the legalistic aspect of Christ and not the gracious--I mean, "mandate" to celebrate the institution of the Lord's Supper?
2. Or to focus on the mandate of the new commandment as opposed to the institution of the Lord's Supper?
3. And simply a word that needs to be explained. The guy asking me the other day was a long term Lutheran.

The funny thing is, of course, when I ask myself why I used the term, the answer is simple: tradition. Gets the best of us...

So, what is the division of this amongst the crowds? What is the proper term to use? What would best describe today for you?

Whatever we call it, maybe all of us have a blessed celebration tonight.

Thank you, and the same to you.

I can't get around the fact that Jesus did, in fact, say "Do this," which qualifies, IMO, as a command.  Likewise, he gives us a new commandment to love one another; again, it's not a suggestion.  So from my POV, "Maundy" is pefectly appropriate.

Steverem

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2010, 03:40:55 PM »
I also think it appropriate, although there's this from the Wikipedia entry for "Maundy Thursday" (take it for what it's worth):

Others theorize that the English name "Maundy Thursday" arose from "maundsor" baskets, in which on that day the king of England distributed alms to certain poor at Whitehall: "maund" is connected with the Latin mendicare, and French mendier, to beg.  A source from the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church likewise states that, if the name were derived from the Latin mandatum, we would call the day Mandy Thursday, or Mandate Thursday, or even Mandatum Thursday; and that the term "Maundy" comes in fact from the Latin mendicare, Old French mendier, and English maund, which as a verb means to beg and as a noun refers to a small basket held out by maunders as they maunded. The name Maundy Thursday thus arose from a medieval custom whereby the English royalty handed out "maundy purses" of alms to the poor before attending Mass on this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maundy_Thursday

BrotherBoris

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 12:22:10 PM »
Speaking of "Maundy Thursday", why do German speaking Christians call this day Gruendonnerstag? (literally, Green Thursday)? What is "green" about it? Anyone know?

Boris

Jeff-MN

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 07:21:20 PM »
If it is "Green Thursday", why is the liturgical colour WHITE?

Dadoo

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2010, 09:16:19 PM »
If it is "Green Thursday", why is the liturgical colour WHITE?

Because the "gruen" in Gruendonnerstag does not refer to the color "gruen" (green) but to an old German word "gronan" (modern form "greinen" ) which means "crying." It is connected with very old church tradition that receives those who had been doing penance for Lent (and longer sometimes) back into the fellowship of the church on this day. I guess it refered to their tears of joy of being readmitted into fellowship or it commemorates their tears in exile.
Peter Kruse

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BrotherBoris

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2010, 11:46:56 PM »
If it is "Green Thursday", why is the liturgical colour WHITE?

Because the "gruen" in Gruendonnerstag does not refer to the color "gruen" (green) but to an old German word "gronan" (modern form "greinen" ) which means "crying." It is connected with very old church tradition that receives those who had been doing penance for Lent (and longer sometimes) back into the fellowship of the church on this day. I guess it refered to their tears of joy of being readmitted into fellowship or it commemorates their tears in exile.

Thank you!  A very nice and complete answer! Now I know why its called "Green Thursday."

Boris

Rev. Spaceman

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2010, 11:55:01 PM »
When it comes to liturgical color for Maundy Thursday, it depends on what the emphasis of the service will be.  The white alternate color is preferable if one is focusing on the institution of the Lord's Supper.  Even then, if the congregation has older white paraments, it would be best to use those rather than the white used for Easter.  Otherwise, if the focus of the service is more on the betrayal and arrest of Jesus, it would simply be better to leave the color scarlet or purple.  That's my understanding, at least.
Rev. Thomas E. Jacobson, Ph.D

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 02:52:31 AM »
It's Holy Thursday in my parish and this year I went to the new Roman calendar/color and went with red/scarlet vestments all week.  The red vestments I used are ones that are not full of doves and other Pentecost symbolism.

I have looked in vain for scarlet vestments, and then I watched Palm Sunday Mass  and the news from various RC parishes and saw Archbishop Dolan and Pope Benedict XVI wearing red...well OK then, red it is.

Weedon

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2010, 08:26:46 AM »
We did scarlet this year, Padre.  I ordered a lovely set from D. K. Brunner and Son.  Google them!  Got the whole set for about $700, I think.  Hand made, traditional, including superfrontal, pulpit hang, lectern book mark, chasuble and stole.  You can see some pics here:

http://weedon.blogspot.com/2010/03/pics-of-scarlet-paraments.html

FatherWilliam57

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2010, 10:47:40 AM »
In my first parish, my wife made three sets of Jacobean frontals for the altar:  black, violet, and scarlet.  We finally purchased a scarlet set from Gaspard in my current parish last year.  A beautiful set used from Passion Sunday through Maundy Thursday.  I begin the Vigil wearing the scarlet cope and stole, then vest in white as the acolytes vest the altar during the Litany of the Saints.  (I wear a house cassock for Good Friday services, since the day has no proper color and the altar is already stripped.  I also wear the cassock for the Imposition of Ashes on Ash Wednesday, then return to the sacristy to wash my hands and change into alb and black vestments for the Eucharist as the congregation meditates silently.  Only takes about 2 minutes.)
The Rev. William B. Henry, Jr.
Interim Pastor, St. Peter's Lutheran Church, Evans City, PA
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Pr. Luke Zimmerman

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Re: Holy or Maundy?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2010, 01:25:02 PM »
We did scarlet this year, Padre.  I ordered a lovely set from D. K. Brunner and Son.  Google them!  Got the whole set for about $700, I think.  Hand made, traditional, including superfrontal, pulpit hang, lectern book mark, chasuble and stole.  You can see some pics here:

http://weedon.blogspot.com/2010/03/pics-of-scarlet-paraments.html

Nice scarlet appointments, Pr. W!

My parish has some from Gaspard. Need to find the stole, however......

We have black for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. One of the past faithful women of the parish converted a black funeral pall into an altar hanging, pulpit hanging, and chasuble after the parish purchased a white funeral pall. Since we have Divine Service for both Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, we have the altar vested for those days.
Pr. Luke Zimmerman
Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church -- Mechanicsburg, PA