Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 798431 times)

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10214
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6225 on: April 02, 2011, 04:27:04 PM »
I know it is hard to imagine, but as one who was an ELCA "stalwart" for many years, I now am mortified at the way I see people being treated. They are not imagining it. It is BAD. I dare to post this under my own name and on behalf of those who wisely remain anonymous, if only to bolster their credibility.


Thank you, Donna.  Bishop Hanson promises one small group of people outside of this church that "it gets better."  Perhaps in our small corner of the ELCA, it can begin to get better this autumn.  I'll miss you at the Assembly.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6226 on: April 02, 2011, 04:44:35 PM »
I know it is hard to imagine, but as one who was an ELCA "stalwart" for many years, I now am mortified at the way I see people being treated. They are not imagining it. It is BAD. I dare to post this under my own name and on behalf of those who wisely remain anonymous, if only to bolster their credibility.


Thank you, Donna.  Bishop Hanson promises one small group of people outside of this church that "it gets better."  Perhaps in our small corner of the ELCA, it can begin to get better this autumn.  I'll miss you at the Assembly.

Pax, Steven+

I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

I am reminded of the preacher who stayed by his church during a flood. As the waters rose, a team of rescuers in an SUV came by and told him to get in, they'd take him to safety. He said, "No, I'll put my trust in God." Later, when the water was up to the second floor, a team of rescuers in an boat came by, and told him to get in, they'd take him to safety. He said, "No, I'll put my trust in God." Then the water was up to the roof, and he stood there, water lapping at his ankles. A helicopter full of rescue workers came by and dropped him a rope. They said to grab the rope, they'll pull him in and take him to safety. He said, "No, I'll put my trust in God." Then the water covered him up and he drowned.

After his death, he came before God and asked, "Lord, I had been your faithful servant ever since I answered your call. Why did you not answer my prayer for rescue?"

God said to him, "I sent people in an SUV, a boat, and a helicopter. Why didn't you accept my rescue when I offered it?"

So, how many SUV's, rowboats, and helicopters are you going to ignore while waiting for God to rescue you?

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10214
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6227 on: April 02, 2011, 05:09:37 PM »
My glass is an eighth full, George.

And there are still lots of women, children, and infirm on the ship.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42675
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6228 on: April 02, 2011, 05:20:04 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."

It was before I came, but a gay couple was attending the congregation. For the most part, they were accepted as fellow believers in Christ. I've heard of two families who left because "they" were in church. Contrary to what some others have experienced, one couple worships occasionally because their children did not leave the congregation; and they are welcomed and greeted. Often they are nearly the last to leave because there's so much visiting going on. The other person is here nearly every week for another program, and is welcomed warmly. There is no animosity (at least none expressed that I've seen) towards those who felt that they had to leave the congregation. How can anyone who believes in this God be pessimistic?

Unless my congregation is very unique in the ELCA, I believe that there are many others just like it. We are looking at a second year of growth in worship attendance. We have increased our giving by over 25%. We are looking at a couple new ways of getting more involved in the community. We are small, but we are not waiting to die, but expecting God to give us new life. Some of us continue to believe in the God who gives life to the dead, who gives sight to the blind, who forgives and saves sinners.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 11:03:25 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Gary Hatcher

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Я православный
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6229 on: April 02, 2011, 05:20:51 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

So, how many SUV's, rowboats, and helicopters are you going to ignore while waiting for God to rescue you?

It is neither optimism nor some fatalistic martyr complex that keeps me.  I remain in the ELCA because this is where I am called to serve God.  I sought to leave because I believe 'this church' to be in heterodox error, however the only peace the Lord gives me is in remaining.  Since it is His purpose that I remain, I remain.
Gary Hatcher STS,
Pastor St. Paul & First Lutheran Churches
Garnavillo & McGregor, IA

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6230 on: April 02, 2011, 06:01:48 PM »
I know it is hard to imagine, but as one who was an ELCA "stalwart" for many years, I now am mortified at the way I see people being treated. They are not imagining it. It is BAD. I dare to post this under my own name and on behalf of those who wisely remain anonymous, if only to bolster their credibility.


Thank you, Donna.  Bishop Hanson promises one small group of people outside of this church that "it gets better."  Perhaps in our small corner of the ELCA, it can begin to get better this autumn.  I'll miss you at the Assembly.

Pax, Steven+

I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

I am reminded of the preacher who stayed by his church during a flood. As the waters rose, a team of rescuers in an SUV came by and told him to get in, they'd take him to safety. He said, "No, I'll put my trust in God." Later, when the water was up to the second floor, a team of rescuers in an boat came by, and told him to get in, they'd take him to safety. He said, "No, I'll put my trust in God." Then the water was up to the roof, and he stood there, water lapping at his ankles. A helicopter full of rescue workers came by and dropped him a rope. They said to grab the rope, they'll pull him in and take him to safety. He said, "No, I'll put my trust in God." Then the water covered him up and he drowned.

After his death, he came before God and asked, "Lord, I had been your faithful servant ever since I answered your call. Why did you not answer my prayer for rescue?"

God said to him, "I sent people in an SUV, a boat, and a helicopter. Why didn't you accept my rescue when I offered it?"

So, how many SUV's, rowboats, and helicopters are you going to ignore while waiting for God to rescue you?


I don't think that optimism is the key here.  If your metaphorical tale is relevant at all, the pastors remaining behind are the SUV drivers, boat captains, and helicopter pilots.  And they are preaching the gospel in the midst of a tumult.  And believe it or not, the church always faces tumult of one sort or other.  Of course, if a person (pastor or otherwise) discerns that his salvation or the salvation of others is at risk and that leaving the ELCA can change that, then he (and his family or congregation) should leave.  But those staying are not generally doing so to "test" God like the preachers in your tale. 


pr dtp

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6231 on: April 02, 2011, 08:06:52 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."

It was before I came, but a gay couple was attending the congregation. For the most part, they were accepted as fellow believers in Christ. I've heard of two families who left because "they" were in church. Contrary to what some others have experienced, one couple worships occasionally because their children did not leave the congregation; and they are welcomed and greeted. Often they are nearly the last to leave because there's so much visiting going on. The other person is here nearly every week for another program, and is welcomed warmly. There is no animosity (at least none expressed that I've seen) towards those who felt that they had to leave the congregation. How can anyone who believes in this God be pessimistic?

Unless my congregation is very unique in the ELCA, I believe that there are many others just like it. We are looking at a second year of membership growth. We have increased our giving by over 25%. We are looking at a couple new ways of getting more involved in the community. We are small, but we are not waiting to die, but expecting God to give us new life. Some of us continue to believe in the God who gives life to the dead, who gives sight to the blind, who forgives and saves sinners.

What gains a congregation if it reach's mega-church status, if it neglects and abuses the means of grace..

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6232 on: April 02, 2011, 08:32:28 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."


Why am I not surprisd?

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42675
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6233 on: April 02, 2011, 11:06:23 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."

It was before I came, but a gay couple was attending the congregation. For the most part, they were accepted as fellow believers in Christ. I've heard of two families who left because "they" were in church. Contrary to what some others have experienced, one couple worships occasionally because their children did not leave the congregation; and they are welcomed and greeted. Often they are nearly the last to leave because there's so much visiting going on. The other person is here nearly every week for another program, and is welcomed warmly. There is no animosity (at least none expressed that I've seen) towards those who felt that they had to leave the congregation. How can anyone who believes in this God be pessimistic?

Unless my congregation is very unique in the ELCA, I believe that there are many others just like it. We are looking at a second year of membership growth. We have increased our giving by over 25%. We are looking at a couple new ways of getting more involved in the community. We are small, but we are not waiting to die, but expecting God to give us new life. Some of us continue to believe in the God who gives life to the dead, who gives sight to the blind, who forgives and saves sinners.

What gains a congregation if it reach's mega-church status, if it neglects and abuses the means of grace.

Could you be a bit clearer about what you are accusing me of doing with the means of grace. Having been chosen to serve on committees that were responsible for worship in three different synods, I think that I have a pretty good understanding of the proper use of the means of grace -- even helped prepare a document on that topic for one synod.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42675
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6234 on: April 02, 2011, 11:07:51 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."


Why am I not surprised?

Ah, but would you be surprised if there were thousands of ELCA congregations pretty much like mine?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6235 on: April 02, 2011, 11:24:52 PM »
In a world where people pole dance for Jesus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIdCevI-LIA

why would another congregation (or another thousand congregations) oblivious to their denomination's antinomianism be surprising?  
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 11:30:51 PM by Rev. Kevin Scheuller »

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6236 on: April 02, 2011, 11:27:46 PM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."


Why am I not surprised?

Ah, but would you be surprised if there were thousands of ELCA congregations pretty much like mine?

Surprised? No. Saddened, disappointed, dismayed, angry, and many other feelings, but not surprised.

Erma S. Wolf

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6237 on: April 03, 2011, 12:36:39 AM »

So, how many SUV's, rowboats, and helicopters are you going to ignore while waiting for God to rescue you?


God has rescued me already, with a cross.  It is enough.

bluejay

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6238 on: April 03, 2011, 12:45:23 AM »
Please pray that God's will be done as these congregations take votes tomorrow. There may be others that aren't known to us, too. These are from Rev. Barnhart's blogspot:

* INDICATES FIRST VOTE ** INDICATES SECOND VOTE

If you know of additions or corrections to this list, please contact us at: wordabide@aol.com

Pray earnestly for these and all congregations going though this process.

April 3
1. St. Matthew Lutheran Church, Stewart, (Fernando) MN **
2. First Lutheran Church, Baker City, OR **
3. Kissinger Lutheran Church, Wyomissing, PA**
4. Grace Lutheran Church, Eau Claire, WI *
5. Trinity Lutheran Church, Lisbon, ND *
6. St. Paul Lutheran Church (Trauger) Latrobe, PA **

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6239 on: April 03, 2011, 08:01:53 AM »
I genuinely admire those who can remain optimistic in the face of incredible odds to the contrary.

Odds about what? The folks in my congregation are, at worst, ambivalent about the 2009 decisions. There are many who support the decision. Many times I've heard folks say, "I don't understand what all the fuss is about."


Why am I not surprised?

Ah, but would you be surprised if there were thousands of ELCA congregations pretty much like mine?

No the absolute surprise is that two thousand years after the event there are still congregations where the preaching of Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and the delivery of God's blessings to his people are still the main thing. That is truly, stunningly, surprising. If people don't know any better,it is not surprising at all that they would say,"I don't understand what all the fuss is about." The majority opinion of the world doesn't "know what all the fuss is about."" Be not conformed to the world."

Lou