Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 798432 times)

amos

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6210 on: April 01, 2011, 11:45:26 PM »
Yes Charles, I do feel better now that I am out from under the whole mess.  I am now serving folks who still believe in things like the virgin birth, the resurrection, and the authority of Holy Scripture.  

Just for the record, if you look back at the past few post it was not me who stated the orthodox or at least some of them exhibit some of the characteristics of rigid fundamentalists, ignorant rubes, or homophobic yahoos.  Those were your words not mine.  

But since you have left, I am glad you now feel free from whatever it was you believed the ELCA dumped on you."
 "

"What ever it was" is exactly the attitude  you so clearly defined. You may not personally say those things but many of your fellow progressives do and with great eagerness, conviction and clarity.  Exactly what many (even those staying in the ELCA) on this list have told you again and again. I do not despise the ELCA, I despise the attitudes of some it's loudest cheerleaders.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 12:34:38 AM by amos »

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6211 on: April 02, 2011, 12:38:04 AM »
No "amos," you over-react and spew your bias once again. My point was and is that we do not consider those who call themselves traditionalists in the less-than-salutary categories I listed. And we take pains to make it clear that we do not. Meanwhile, some feel free to continually hurl invectives and other venom in our direction, without complaint or correction.

But since you have left, I am glad you now feel free from whatever it was you believed the ELCA dumped on you.

Who is this "we" you speak of? You deny that you are any sort of official spokesman for the ELCA, yet you make pronouncements like this as if you were Hanson's personal press agent.

Frankly, and "we" that includes "you" has a well demonstrated propensity for rudeness and snark towards those who are unabashedly "traditionalist", especially if they are affiliated with the LC-MS or any other church body or denomination that isn't the ELCA or one of the handful of other churches of other faith traditions that the ELCA has reciprocal agreements with.


Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6212 on: April 02, 2011, 03:31:15 AM »
Sigh. (Again.) Sensible people will understand that some of us here do indeed "speak for the ELCA," insofar as we are representing the views which inform the current policies and practices of that church body. Those views were endorsed by our Church-Wide Assembly and urged upon that Assembly by a couple dozen synods and thousands of people in other synods.
We believe those policies and practices to be valid, and that the ELCA is a church body in which the Gospel is rightly (but not perfectly) preached and the sacraments are rightly (but not perfectly) celebrated.
Others here have declared our church and its leaders corrupt, constantly speak ill of it, treat the church and its leaders disrespectfully and either desire to leave it or have already done so.
I have said a thousand times that I hope that "traditionalists" who are able to work in good and honest fellowship with the ELCA stay in. I shall try to be kind to those people who respect our church and its leaders enough to do that, even if they disagree.
I understand how some cannot do that and wish them well as they find their calling elsewhere.
And if they stay in, but spew venom, spread lies, call names and otherwise malign us or attempt to disrupt our ministries, I just might continue to be a bit upset. This is my family you are attacking.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 03:37:14 AM by Charles_Austin »

GalRev83

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6213 on: April 02, 2011, 08:33:47 AM »
I am still "in" the ELCA, but because of the way I saw "Amos" and others treated at our last Synod Assembly, I am doing my darndest to be out of state/nation at the time of this year's assembly. I am on leave from call anyway, and so I could not speak or vote, even though we are electing a bishop this assembly.

I know it is hard to imagine, but as one who was an ELCA "stalwart" for many years, I now am mortified at the way I see people being treated. They are not imagining it. It is BAD. I dare to post this under my own name and on behalf of those who wisely remain anonymous, if only to bolster their credibility.

Donna

vicarbob

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6214 on: April 02, 2011, 09:49:38 AM »
That is an interesting fact. Congratulations on your accomplishment. I don't see what that has to do with the question I asked, but mazel tov on getting your sheepskin.

 ??? ??? ??? George, I was exempt from Greek ??? ??? ??? ???

Must've been exempt from Hebrew, too. ::)  Good fortune/luck is the literal translation... it means congratulations in modern parlance.  "tov" is the Hebrew word for good - as in, "God saw...and it was good".

Keith, Keith, Keith what am I to do with you.........do ya think the Brooklyn kid never was exposed to Mazel Tov before......maybe I was just kiddin'......sigh, oy gevelt  ;)

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6215 on: April 02, 2011, 10:04:04 AM »
Don't waste your time, Donna.  You will not convince Charles, Brian, nor any of the staunch, blind followers of all things ELCA.   Seems humanity has seen this kind of mental mindset before:  "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

I even added my real name to the forum, and Charles still insists on replying to me by my forum name. 

I was not planning on attending the assembly this year, especially now that we are in between votes.  I was sure I had to be in Tahiti, or have a root canal, or something.  However, given the new climate here in C/SIS, I now, I am planning on going, making it officially my last assembly.

We had an interesting discussion at pericope last week, about the office of the keys.  We, in general, are so quick to pronounce a blanket forgiveness of sins through Christ, but yet we do not, and have not for some time now, pronounced the opposite:  namely that to those who do not repent, their sins are NOT forgiven.

Charles and his ilk will never get that the two irreconcilable hermeneutics within the ELCA are so fundamentally different, that they go way beyond matters of bound conscience.  There is a thread dedicated to just that topic.  As such, we cannot just "all get along," play nice, and defend mother church.   As such, they cannot nor will they ever recognize that what we are saying is not "spewing venom and spreading lies," but is the very kind of thing that I (and we) are calling on them to repent of.   Dismissing the argument as "venom and spreading lies" is dismissing the truth.  I believe the Pharisees were also guilty of that, hence my quoting of Luke earlier. 

And thus we find ourselves where we are at today:  with more and more congregations taking votes and leaving.  Those that fail are no longer viable.  Those whose pastors utterly fail in their duty to defend the Gospel and thus refuse to even discuss the issues will in the end destroy the majority of the congregations.  The ELCA will not die a quick death.  It will be a slow death of attrition as membership slowly dwindles away.

And Charles, before you go on yet another rant and refuse to deal with the actual issues and complaints of those like me, Might I also suggest you look in the mirror.  Because this is MY family YOU have been attacking as well.

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6216 on: April 02, 2011, 10:20:57 AM »
Pastor Cottingham (used the name, now that I have seen it), I have no "ilk."
And please explain how I am "attacking" you and your family. I invite you to stay in the ELCA, to work for change if you wish, or if change does not come to your satisfaction to work with us on the things that do not divide us.
I do not call you names, and if I am present when others do, I shall protest.
But you are, alas, leaving; and I hope that your new church home is all that you need it to be.
 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:33:20 AM by Charles_Austin »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6217 on: April 02, 2011, 11:22:02 AM »
And thus we find ourselves where we are at today:  with more and more congregations taking votes and leaving.  Those that fail are no longer viable.  Those whose pastors utterly fail in their duty to defend the Gospel and thus refuse to even discuss the issues will in the end destroy the majority of the congregations.  The ELCA will not die a quick death.  It will be a slow death of attrition as membership slowly dwindles away.

How should we, who continue in the ELCA and support it, react to the charge that we "utterly fail in [our] duty to defend the gospel"?

Quote
And Charles, before you go on yet another rant and refuse to deal with the actual issues and complaints of those like me, Might I also suggest you look in the mirror.  Because this is MY family YOU have been attacking as well.

How should we react so that you don't interpret it as an attack against you?

I stated very early after "respecting bound consciences" was approved that it had any chance of working, each group would have to police its own side. As Charles has stated, if we hear of a "revisionists" attacking "traditionalists" we need to seek to stop it. Similarly, if "traditionalists" hear one of their own attacking a "revisionist" they need to intervene.

Of course, if folks don't believe that bearing one another's burdens, loving one another, and respecting their bound consciences can work, then why bother to confront violations of the 8th commandment?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6218 on: April 02, 2011, 12:10:52 PM »
Of course, if folks don't believe that bearing one another's burdens, loving one another, and respecting their bound consciences can work, then why bother to confront violations of the 8th commandment?

Which violations do you refer to? Do you refer to failure to cast someone else's statements in their best possible light, or do you refer to consistently lying about the fact that "the issue" is about "relationships", which is not true, and is really about committing acts of sin, which is the truth?

Whenever anyone casts "the issue" as being about relationships and not about God's prohibition of acts of homoerotic lust, that person is bearing false witness. Are you saying that we should or should not confront that lie each time it is repeated?

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6219 on: April 02, 2011, 12:30:02 PM »
No "amos," you over-react and spew your bias once again. My point was and is that we do not consider those who call themselves traditionalists in the less-than-salutary categories I listed. And we take pains to make it clear that we do not. Meanwhile, some feel free to continually hurl invectives and other venom in our direction, without complaint or correction.

But since you have left, I am glad you now feel free from whatever it was you believed the ELCA dumped on you.

Umm...  Brian called "traditionalists" delusional (which, just to remind you means "To hold a false, psychotic belief" according to my dictionary...), which according to him was one of the "nicer" things he could find to say.  And you implied that people like me were using "overblown" rehtoric, paranoia, and "no small measure of actual stupidity..." in our discourse.

But apart from that, no "you" (pl.) do not consider "those who call themselves traditionalists" in "less than salutary" categories.

With friends like you, "we" (traditionalists) hardly need enemies.  And with compliments like this, I'd really hate to see what qualifies as "less than salutary."  It reminds me of the incident a couple of weeks ago where a NPR executive was caught holding "conservatives" in disdain, or where Sen. Chuck Shumer was "overheard" saying that he uses the word "extreme" in refering to Republicans.  Duh.  Like we didn't already know these things.  

So...  Duh.  We already know that the ELCA considers herself morally superior to us "traditionalists," whom are referred to usually as either (a) stupid and/or ignorant, (b) unloving and judgmental, (c) crazy and dangerous, or (d) all of the above.  We also know that you don't consider these categories as "less than salutory," and actually see them as helpful because it allows you to (a) "fix" or educate us, (b) ignore and/or dismiss our concerns, (c) feel good about yourself because you aren't any of those things, or (d) all of the above.  

We get it already.  "You" are so much better than the rest of humanity.  Thank God that he didn't make you like us...

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 12:34:31 PM by A Catholic Lutheran »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6220 on: April 02, 2011, 01:35:41 PM »
No "amos," you over-react and spew your bias once again. My point was and is that we do not consider those who call themselves traditionalists in the less-than-salutary categories I listed. And we take pains to make it clear that we do not. Meanwhile, some feel free to continually hurl invectives and other venom in our direction, without complaint or correction.

But since you have left, I am glad you now feel free from whatever it was you believed the ELCA dumped on you.

Umm...  Brian called "traditionalists" delusional (which, just to remind you means "To hold a false, psychotic belief" according to my dictionary...), which according to him was one of the "nicer" things he could find to say.  And you implied that people like me were using "overblown" rehtoric, paranoia, and "no small measure of actual stupidity..." in our discourse.

Actually, it was revklak who called "revisionists" deluded. I disagreed with his reason for stating that and I responded that he was deluded in his view of "revisionists". I stand by that. There are "traditionalists" who hold a false, psychotic belief about "revisionists".

Quote
So...  Duh.  We already know that the ELCA considers herself morally superior to us "traditionalists," whom are referred to usually as either (a) stupid and/or ignorant, (b) unloving and judgmental, (c) crazy and dangerous, or (d) all of the above.  We also know that you don't consider these categories as "less than salutory," and actually see them as helpful because it allows you to (a) "fix" or educate us, (b) ignore and/or dismiss our concerns, (c) feel good about yourself because you aren't any of those things, or (d) all of the above.  

When "traditionalists" accuse us of throwing out the Bible or being centered on self or being heretics, how should we respond? Of course they will argue that the are acting out love and that their judgment is to lead us back to the "truth" (at least as they see it).
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6221 on: April 02, 2011, 02:08:50 PM »
When "traditionalists" accuse us of throwing out the Bible or being centered on self or being heretics, how should we respond? Of course they will argue that the are acting out love and that their judgment is to lead us back to the "truth" (at least as they see it).

You should pause, look inside yourselves, and recognize that you are being told the truth, and then you should repent.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6222 on: April 02, 2011, 03:06:54 PM »
When "traditionalists" accuse us of throwing out the Bible or being centered on self or being heretics, how should we respond? Of course they will argue that the are acting out love and that their judgment is to lead us back to the "truth" (at least as they see it).

You should pause, look inside yourselves, and recognize that you are being told the truth, and then you should repent.

I think that's exactly what Pope Leo X said to Luther. Maybe if he had listened we wouldn't be in the ecclesiastical messes we are in now.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6223 on: April 02, 2011, 03:19:57 PM »
When "traditionalists" accuse us of throwing out the Bible or being centered on self or being heretics, how should we respond? Of course they will argue that the are acting out love and that their judgment is to lead us back to the "truth" (at least as they see it).

You should pause, look inside yourselves, and recognize that you are being told the truth, and then you should repent.

I think that's exactly what Pope Leo X said to Luther. Maybe if he had listened we wouldn't be in the ecclesiastical messes we are in now.

Which means or proves nothing. Leo X was wrong. I am not.

Yesterday, my wife said it was raining. However, it was not raining. Therefore, she was wrong. On Wednseday, I said it was raining. And, it was raining on Wednesday. Therefore, I was right. The fact that one person was wrong when they said something about one thing doesn't mean that those who use the same words to say something about a different thing doesn't have any bearing on the second person's statement.


Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6224 on: April 02, 2011, 04:20:12 PM »
When "traditionalists" accuse us of throwing out the Bible or being centered on self or being heretics, how should we respond? Of course they will argue that the are acting out love and that their judgment is to lead us back to the "truth" (at least as they see it).

You should pause, look inside yourselves, and recognize that you are being told the truth, and then you should repent.

I think that's exactly what Pope Leo X said to Luther. Maybe if he had listened we wouldn't be in the ecclesiastical messes we are in now.

Which means or proves nothing. Leo X was wrong. I am not.

Yesterday, my wife said it was raining. However, it was not raining. Therefore, she was wrong. On Wednseday, I said it was raining. And, it was raining on Wednesday. Therefore, I was right. The fact that one person was wrong when they said something about one thing doesn't mean that those who use the same words to say something about a different thing doesn't have any bearing on the second person's statement.

We had no rain here Wednesday or Thursday. So, from my perspective, anyone who said it was raining on either day was wrong.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]