Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817256 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4500 on: November 27, 2010, 04:13:20 PM »

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.

Those technological advances may lead you to build your own Tower of Babel (or "babble" as the case may be).

More likely they will enable us to "beat swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks" (Isaiah 2:4) -- part of the First Reading for Sunday. I note that the text does not say that God will transforms these weapons of war into farm utensils, but that "they" -- that is, "the nations" or "many people" will do it.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4501 on: November 27, 2010, 04:13:47 PM »
Your lesson plans for teaching the Ten Commandments in catechim must be a stitch.

The original question was not about The Ten Commandments; just the commandments.

And as you wrote a few moments ago, "An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep."

So your lesson plans for teaching the Ten Commandments in catechism must be a stitch.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

amos

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4502 on: November 27, 2010, 04:21:24 PM »
There is a sign in a major university computer lab that seems to apply to at least one constant writer on this forum.  It reads "ELBKAC"

Translated it means "Error Lies Between Keyboard and chair."   :) :D ;D

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4503 on: November 27, 2010, 05:10:19 PM »
"amos" writes:
There is a sign in a major university computer lab that seems to apply to at least one constant writer on this forum.  It reads "ELBKAC"
Translated it means "Error Lies Between Keyboard and chair."  
I muse:
I think I shall port this comment over to that discussion thread wherein the moderator asks what can be done to improve the forum. My suggestion: give people who persistently throw out personal attacks two warnings, and the third time... out.
My second suggestion: ban anonymous contributions enabling people to throw stones and hide behind a screen name and not be responsible for what they say.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4504 on: November 27, 2010, 05:23:02 PM »
Your lesson plans for teaching the Ten Commandments in catechim must be a stitch.

The original question was not about The Ten Commandments; just the commandments.

And as you wrote a few moments ago, "An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep."

So your lesson plans for teaching the Ten Commandments in catechism must be a stitch.

Actually, it's my lesson plan on Leviticus where I have:

Leviticus 19
• What does God say about his people in verse 2? What does it mean?   
• What commands are in verse 3? Should we continue to keep them?
• Read the commands in vv. 11-18. Which ones should we still keep? Should we ignore any of them?
• Read the commands in vv. 19. Which ones should we keep? Should we ignore any of them?
• Read the commands in vv. 26-32. Which ones should we keep? Should we ignore any of them?
• Read the commands in vv. 33-34. Should we keep them?
• What criteria do we use in whether we continue to keep these ancient rules or ignore them?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Chuck Sampson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4505 on: November 27, 2010, 05:25:08 PM »
"amos" writes:
There is a sign in a major university computer lab that seems to apply to at least one constant writer on this forum.  It reads "ELBKAC"
Translated it means "Error Lies Between Keyboard and chair."  
I muse:
I think I shall port this comment over to that discussion thread wherein the moderator asks what can be done to improve the forum. My suggestion: give people who persistently throw out personal attacks two warnings, and the third time... out.
My second suggestion: ban anonymous contributions enabling people to throw stones and hide behind a screen name and not be responsible for what they say.
Well, the suggestion concerning personal attacks would have removed you some time ago . . . 8) 8)

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4506 on: November 27, 2010, 05:34:40 PM »
Only if one has a warped definition of "personal attack." I do not denounce another's faith, say their vocation is invalid, question their standing in the eyes of God, declare them un-Lutheran, call them a bad pastor, say they do not believe the Bible, or suggest they kick their dog. And all, repeat all (except for the last about the dog) of those things have been said about me and one other poster in this forum many times.

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4507 on: November 27, 2010, 06:01:20 PM »
Brian and Charles irritate many here, but that does not seem to stop folk from responding to them.  Instead of making them the problem, it would be very helpful if others at least much of the time simply refused to get into endless back and forth messages.  It takes two to tango, and complainers seem determined to tangle with our ELCA defender friends and then complain about the waste of time. 

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4508 on: November 27, 2010, 06:22:21 PM »
And of course, defending the ELCA is not appropriate for this forum and those few (two?) who want to do so should be ignored. We get that. So much for dialogue and respect for those with views other than yours. It also helps if you can dismiss their posts as irrelevant, red herrings, mud-slinging or flat-out heresy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:40:16 PM by Charles_Austin »

ptmccain

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4509 on: November 27, 2010, 06:39:10 PM »
Brian and Charles irritate many here, but that does not seem to stop folk from responding to them.  Instead of making them the problem, it would be very helpful if others at least much of the time simply refused to get into endless back and forth messages.  It takes two to tango, and complainers seem determined to tangle with our ELCA defender friends and then complain about the waste of time. 


Paul, it has taken me far too long to reach this point with some here, particularly one of the two you mention. It is the only way to handle the situation. Unless and until the moderators take some conclusive action, ignoring is the only choice, and the best choice, for all here. I know it's hard to do, but ignoring those whom you simply are unable to respond to without climbing down into the mud pit with them is the only way to go.

hillwilliam

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4510 on: November 27, 2010, 07:18:10 PM »

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God. He stated "Not during his time on earth".


Actually, I didn't remember that.  I'll admit it's a prize-winner.

Please offer your explanation for these biblical passages about Jesus:

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." (Phl 2:6b)

"He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phl 2:7)

This Sunday (for those using the Revised Common Lectionary) will hear:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mt 24:36)


Sure, as soon as you explain how "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made." supports your position.

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4511 on: November 27, 2010, 08:01:42 PM »

Just for the sake of new people to this forum, most of Brian's musings go unaddressed b/c we've been over them so many times before it's ridiculous.  Somehow, likely knowing how internet forums work, Brian continues to repeat what he's repeated with great regularity, no matter how many times before his arguments have been discredited.

yeah, I've only been on this forum for less than a month and I've noticed that...  :P  Besides, I figure I might as well just stay out of it for now... he thinks I'm a Pharisee... or Pharaoh... or maybe both.   ::)

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4512 on: November 27, 2010, 08:06:44 PM »
And the arguments opposing the views of Pastor Stoffregen are equally predictable, repetitive and plowing the same soil. They have not been convincing in years of debate and are not likely to be convincing now.
Yes, those argument are predictable and old, because they are time-tested and proven.

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.

Within business, relying on the time-tested and proven ways of the past are certain to mean failure in the future. "Wrecked by success" is a phrase in one book I've read. "If it ain't broke, break it," is the title of another book.

Yep, same form of argument I've heard here before...

Which brings Brian's point ultimately to the fact that some today have a different "Bible" and different "interpretation" than those before, if we are indeed now comparing tractors and horses.

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4513 on: November 27, 2010, 08:09:27 PM »

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God. He stated "Not during his time on earth".


Actually, I didn't remember that.  I'll admit it's a prize-winner.

Please offer your explanation for these biblical passages about Jesus:

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." (Phl 2:6b)

"He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phl 2:7)

This Sunday (for those using the Revised Common Lectionary) will hear:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mt 24:36)



Then please explain Jesus saying "I and the Father are one..." ?  Give me a break, for crying out loud...

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4514 on: November 27, 2010, 09:00:40 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.

And to think that thousands of pastors read this guy's Gospel Notes for Sunday week after week after week.

Unless, of course, St. Paul, the Church Fathers, and Our Lord are to be included with "moderns."

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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