Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 842640 times)

hillwilliam

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4485 on: November 27, 2010, 02:23:31 PM »
And the arguments opposing the views of Pastor Stoffregen are equally predictable, repetitive and plowing the same soil. They have not been convincing in years of debate and are not likely to be convincing now.
Yes, those argument are predictable and old, because they are time-tested and proven.

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.


The Commandments are superseded by technological advances?  That's as arrogant a thing as I've read here for awhile, which is saying a lot.

Mike Bennett

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God, he stated "Not during his time on earth". It took him many pages of that thread to revise that revision of scripture to clean it up. Such arrogance has been a regular feature of his posts.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 07:19:12 PM by hillwilliam »

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4486 on: November 27, 2010, 02:47:00 PM »

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God. He stated "Not during his time on earth".


Actually, I didn't remember that.  I'll admit it's a prize-winner.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4487 on: November 27, 2010, 03:11:33 PM »
And the arguments opposing the views of Pastor Stoffregen are equally predictable, repetitive and plowing the same soil. They have not been convincing in years of debate and are not likely to be convincing now.
Yes, those argument are predictable and old, because they are time-tested and proven.

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.


The Commandments are superseded by technological advances?  That's as arrogant a thing as I've read here for awhile, which is saying a lot.

We no longer stone people to death for capital crimes.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pilgrim

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4488 on: November 27, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P
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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4489 on: November 27, 2010, 03:18:01 PM »
And the arguments opposing the views of Pastor Stoffregen are equally predictable, repetitive and plowing the same soil. They have not been convincing in years of debate and are not likely to be convincing now.
Yes, those argument are predictable and old, because they are time-tested and proven.

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.


The Commandments are superseded by technological advances?  That's as arrogant a thing as I've read here for awhile, which is saying a lot.

We no longer stone people to death for capital crimes.

I was about to give you an honorable mention for not mentioning slavery or women's suffrage, but never mind now.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4490 on: November 27, 2010, 03:18:27 PM »

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God. He stated "Not during his time on earth".


Actually, I didn't remember that.  I'll admit it's a prize-winner.

Please offer your explanation for these biblical passages about Jesus:

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." (Phl 2:6b)

"He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phl 2:7)

This Sunday (for those using the Revised Common Lectionary) will hear:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mt 24:36)

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4491 on: November 27, 2010, 03:20:39 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4492 on: November 27, 2010, 03:25:10 PM »

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God. He stated "Not during his time on earth".


Actually, I didn't remember that.  I'll admit it's a prize-winner.

Please offer your explanation for these biblical passages about Jesus:

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." (Phl 2:6b)

"He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phl 2:7)

This Sunday (for those using the Revised Common Lectionary) will hear:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mt 24:36)


No.  I will not debate the divinity of Christ.  I spent one academic year in college doing that, with my roommate's Jehovah's Witness tutor.    The result was that I got muddy and he enjoyed himself.  Won't do it again.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4493 on: November 27, 2010, 03:28:09 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.

So "Have no other Gods" is only more timeless than "Only take enough manna for one day (except on Friday)" because moderns have decided it's more timeless.  Wow.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4494 on: November 27, 2010, 03:30:19 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.

So "Have no other Gods" is only more timeless than "Only take enough manna for one day (except on Friday)" because moderns have decided it's more timeless.  Wow.

As I recall, the punishment for going after other gods and for working on the sabbath day were the same.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 03:38:15 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4495 on: November 27, 2010, 03:41:15 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.

So "Have no other Gods" is only more timeless than "Only take enough manna for one day (except on Friday)" because moderns have decided it's more timeless.  Wow.

As I recall, the punishment for going after other gods and for collecting manna on the forbidden day were the same.

Your lesson plans for teaching the Ten Commandments in catechim must be a stitch.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Dan Fienen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4496 on: November 27, 2010, 03:57:44 PM »
The terms "literalist" and "fundementalist" have been applied to various people in these discussions and to even more people we've talked about.  But perhaps "literalist" applies to no one here better than to Brian who has never met a Bible passage that he wouldn't take woodenly literally it it helps make his point that we must always find new ways to understand the Bible, loves pitting one part of Scripture against another to prove we should disregard what we don't like,  and that old interpretations are always suspect and should usually be disregarded.

Thus he proves that Jesus was not divine before His resurrection, and that OT law is incoherent, disregarded, and has no validity in the modern church.

Dan
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4497 on: November 27, 2010, 04:06:28 PM »
Your lesson plans for teaching the Ten Commandments in catechim must be a stitch.

The original question was not about The Ten Commandments; just the commandments. There are lots of other commandments in the OT besides the Ten. (A bit of trivia, the Hebrew text never uses the phrase "The Ten Commandments," but "The Ten Words.")
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

SmithL

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4498 on: November 27, 2010, 04:09:55 PM »

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.

Those technological advances may lead you to build your own Tower of Babel (or "babble" as the case may be).

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4499 on: November 27, 2010, 04:10:55 PM »
Thus he proves that Jesus was not divine before His resurrection,

I never said that Jesus was not divine. He emptied himself of his divine attributes while on earth, thus he could be born and die. He was not everywhere present, but was limited to being present where his human body was. Are you going to offer your interpretation of the passages I quoted?

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and that OT law is incoherent, disregarded, and has no validity in the modern church.

I didn't say that either. We usually create some criteria for deciding which of the OT commands are worth keeping today and which do we discard. I know of no one who adopts every OT command as necessary for a faithful life today.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]