Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 842003 times)

Steverem

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3885 on: November 08, 2010, 03:19:14 PM »
Might I interrupt with this message from Faith in Christ Springfield Ohio:

Faith in Christ took it first vote yesterday afternoon.  50 for the resolution - 5 against the resolution.
91% approval to dissafilliate from ELCA and to affilitate with NALC.
Second vote will be early February 2011, most likely February 13th.

40% of the Mad River (Springfield conference) is now in the process of leaving.

And that from a conference containing an ELCA college (Wittenberg).

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3886 on: November 08, 2010, 03:24:40 PM »
someone writes:
I have also worked with psychiatrists and found them to be uniformly looney tunes.

I comment:
Chalk up another profession arrogantly dismissed as useless by the know-it-alls on this discussion board. Must be a full moon out tonight.

Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3887 on: November 08, 2010, 03:34:31 PM »


I don't think that the issue was whether the congregation had left the ELCA, but whether the pastors were serving an LCMC congregation, whether they were members of another church body. The bishop concluded that they were.

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3888 on: November 08, 2010, 03:34:55 PM »
My God....  The world has gone stark, raving mad...

Suddenly the 4+ hours I just spent at the local tire place just became... better?

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3889 on: November 08, 2010, 03:37:09 PM »
Quote
Had these pastors joined an LCMC congregation -- a congregation of another church body?

If the Bishop declares the very vote to do so, "null and void," then  how on God's green earth can he then say that they ARE an LCMC congregation? If a vote to leave the ELCA fails, then they are still an ELCA congregation. If that is the case, AND if the Bishop has declared their vote to join LCMC null and void, then they are schismatic exactly...how? In which case, their pastor ought to be removed from the roster without due process...why?

While the vote to leave the ELCA was null and void, the vote to join LCMC was not. They are listed as a congregation of the LCMC.

Channeling George Orwell, are you? If I am married, and I decide to marry someone else without benefit of divorce, to which spouse am I legally married?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3890 on: November 08, 2010, 03:45:34 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes (to me):
If your alleged support of the ELCA was more than just the blathering of a bitter old man,

I comment:
This is the fourth or fifth or more time that I have been subject to this kind of language from Mr. Erdner. I have asked the moderators for relief, but none has come. So I choose to point out to all here just how Mr. Erdner, time after time, chooses to engage in "discussion." Others may also note his name-calling and mean language in other instances and against other people.  
I said long ago, when Mr. Erdner's invective and style of posting arose, that it would ruin discussion in this forum.
Just sayin'
Everyone make your own evaluation.

George, this is a final warning. Any more language like this and you will be suspended. "Invective" is about right.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3891 on: November 08, 2010, 03:47:42 PM »
My God....  The world has gone stark, raving mad...

Suddenly the 4+ hours I just spent at the local tire place just became... better?

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

That was sort of what I was trying to say with my "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" post. You may have said it better.

It would be very funny, if it wasn't dear friends and family... its like watching your child who is sick and they look up with eyes of 'help me,' and you can't do anything, but pray. It really does hurt.

TV
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3892 on: November 08, 2010, 03:48:36 PM »
You didn't answer my question. Are these pastors members of an LCMC congregation? I'm not asking if the LCMC says that they have to be or not. I'm asking if they are. All indications is that they are members of a congregation that is listed as a member of the LCMC.

That is one of the tasks of the Discipline Committee, to determine such facts.  Then, once the facts have been determined, proper discipline can be maintained.

One of the problems here is that in one set of circumstances the Prosecutor, er, Bishop is asserting one set of facts with regard to the congregation and asserting a mutually exclusive set of facts regard to the pastors.  

He is trying to have it both ways, following (if he is following the pattern of my Bishop and others in the last year-and-a-half) the directions of the trial lawyer ruling as the ELCA's Secretary.

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3893 on: November 08, 2010, 04:02:03 PM »

The synod had been warned bringing in an Industrial Arts Foundation advocate from Chicago would be dangerous.

The, uh, funny thing about this is that it is the IAF advocates who are leading the oppression of ELCA congregations and pastors who dare to disagree.

Usually at this point I say, "No one oppresses like those who were oppressed."  But this time it is the privileged few who have continually claimed to speak for the voiceless oppressed.

Ah, where is Malcolm X when we need him?
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3894 on: November 08, 2010, 04:26:04 PM »
What basis do you have for this claim?

from Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Revision issued July 2010

B. No Dual Roster Membership: An ordained minister of this church who enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof, shall cease to be a member of this church. The ordained minister’s name shall be removed from the roster of ordained ministers by the bishop of the synod, who shall report the action to the secretary of this church and to the next Synod Assembly. (p. 45)

I want to revisit this particular issue, vis-a-vis what happened in regards to "Visions and Expectatation."

When the debate was going on about the wording in V+E, specifically Article 6, it was hotly argued that V+E had never been approved by a CWA, and hence could not be considered binding.  Indeed, I distinctly remember a conversation that you (Brian Stoffregen) and I (Jerry Kliner) had on this very forum back at the time of the 2007 CWA, where you argued that the ELCA had no official policy on non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy, because no CWA had ever ratified such a policy, and hence V+E, as a policy manual, was unenforceable.

So now, suddenly you are pulling out the Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a document I believe has never been reviewed by a CWA--certainly not a revision that took place this last summer (July 2010)-- on an issue that has never been ratified by a CWA (hence the ELCA has no "Official" policy on it), and then drive the point home that this is binding?

The wind blows east...  Sometimes it blows west...  One thing for sure, this really blows.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3895 on: November 08, 2010, 04:29:42 PM »
Quote
Had these pastors joined an LCMC congregation -- a congregation of another church body?

If the Bishop declares the very vote to do so, "null and void," then  how on God's green earth can he then say that they ARE an LCMC congregation? If a vote to leave the ELCA fails, then they are still an ELCA congregation. If that is the case, AND if the Bishop has declared their vote to join LCMC null and void, then they are schismatic exactly...how? In which case, their pastor ought to be removed from the roster without due process...why?

While the vote to leave the ELCA was null and void, the vote to join LCMC was not. They are listed as a congregation of the LCMC.

Channeling George Orwell, are you? If I am married, and I decide to marry someone else without benefit of divorce, to which spouse am I legally married?

Depends if you're living in or near Utah or not. :)

While there are laws against marrying two wives -- that is enforced in most states, there is not an ELCA rule that prohibits a congregation from affiliating with two church bodies -- at least none that anyone has found.

Thus, the congregation is married to both. However, the pastors, who fall under different rules, can only be married to one or the other, but not both.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3896 on: November 08, 2010, 04:32:24 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

Hey, if you and I led it, then we could keep the money! :) I might even consider spending it at CPH.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3897 on: November 08, 2010, 04:36:15 PM »


I don't think that the issue was whether the congregation had left the ELCA, but whether the pastors were serving an LCMC congregation, whether they were members of another church body. The bishop concluded that they were.

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.

Show me where the ELCA says that dual membership of a congregation is not possible. It's not hard to find the rule against against rostered folks, but I've looked and there's nothing I can find that prohibits dual membership of a congregation.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3898 on: November 08, 2010, 04:37:16 PM »
Channeling George Orwell, are you? If I am married, and I decide to marry someone else without benefit of divorce, to which spouse am I legally married?

Okay, hi everyone, I'm kind of new here.  I was going to post about the LDS polygamists, but Brian beat me to it.  Howabout not being aware that I needed to sign a pre-nup. 

Of course, knowing how very seldom it is that pastors serve just one church for 20+ years (I say seldom, not never), the marriage analogy doesn't quite work for me.  Anyway, I understand Richard's point, but consider myself and many fellow brothers and sisters in the ministry in the ELCA feel a lot like Hosea right now.  >:(

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3899 on: November 08, 2010, 04:39:35 PM »
What basis do you have for this claim?

from Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Revision issued July 2010

B. No Dual Roster Membership: An ordained minister of this church who enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof, shall cease to be a member of this church. The ordained minister’s name shall be removed from the roster of ordained ministers by the bishop of the synod, who shall report the action to the secretary of this church and to the next Synod Assembly. (p. 45)

I want to revisit this particular issue, vis-a-vis what happened in regards to "Visions and Expectatation."

When the debate was going on about the wording in V+E, specifically Article 6, it was hotly argued that V+E had never been approved by a CWA, and hence could not be considered binding.  Indeed, I distinctly remember a conversation that you (Brian Stoffregen) and I (Jerry Kliner) had on this very forum back at the time of the 2007 CWA, where you argued that the ELCA had no official policy on non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy, because no CWA had ever ratified such a policy, and hence V+E, as a policy manual, was unenforceable.

So now, suddenly you are pulling out the Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a document I believe has never been reviewed by a CWA--certainly not a revision that took place this last summer (July 2010)-- on an issue that has never been ratified by a CWA (hence the ELCA has no "Official" policy on it), and then drive the point home that this is binding?

Ah, but, I believe it was Richard, who showed me the error of my ways with V&E and D&G. The ELCA Constitution/Bylaws empowers the Church Council to create the disciplinary documents.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]