Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 842020 times)

David Norland

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3870 on: November 08, 2010, 12:49:38 PM »
Is it that the congregation has left the ELCA, joined LCMC, and thus the pastors are to be removed immediately from the roster (which then the follow-up becomes James' questions about whether or not policies and procedures can trump the constitution [I'm with him - they can't]) or is it that the 2nd attempt at a 2nd vote was invalid and thus the congregation has not left the ELCA, and they need to start the voting procedures all over again?

James Gale and Keith Falk are raising an important issue about the provisions of the Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.   Page 15 of the Manual lists four bases for removal of clergy from the ordained roster: death, resignation, end of “on leave” status, and discipline. The first two are obvious. The last two are provided for in detail in the ELCA Constitution and Bylaws.

Page 45 of the Manual introduces a fifth method for removal from the roster by which a bishop removes an ordained minister from the roster either because he or she “either leaves the work of the ordained ministry or engages in another occupation without consent of the bishop of the synod” or “enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof.”

I don’t find anything in the Constitution or Bylaws which gives a bishop this power, so the sole authorization for this method of removal is the adoption of the Manual by the Church Council. But where does the Church Council derive the authority to grant this power?  In fact, the Constitution seems to deny this authority to the Church Council. Article 7.23 states: “The standards for acceptance and continuance of pastors in the ordained ministry of this church shall be set forth in the bylaws.” Only the Churchwide Assembly can adopt bylaws.

I’m only a humble parliamentarian and not an attorney, but is seems to me the Church Council exceeded its authority.

Jim, did you see this post by Wayne this morning?  Wayne has clearly marked the place where authority has been exceeded.

James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3871 on: November 08, 2010, 12:55:05 PM »
Is it that the congregation has left the ELCA, joined LCMC, and thus the pastors are to be removed immediately from the roster (which then the follow-up becomes James' questions about whether or not policies and procedures can trump the constitution [I'm with him - they can't]) or is it that the 2nd attempt at a 2nd vote was invalid and thus the congregation has not left the ELCA, and they need to start the voting procedures all over again?

James Gale and Keith Falk are raising an important issue about the provisions of the Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.   Page 15 of the Manual lists four bases for removal of clergy from the ordained roster: death, resignation, end of “on leave” status, and discipline. The first two are obvious. The last two are provided for in detail in the ELCA Constitution and Bylaws.

Page 45 of the Manual introduces a fifth method for removal from the roster by which a bishop removes an ordained minister from the roster either because he or she “either leaves the work of the ordained ministry or engages in another occupation without consent of the bishop of the synod” or “enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof.”

I don’t find anything in the Constitution or Bylaws which gives a bishop this power, so the sole authorization for this method of removal is the adoption of the Manual by the Church Council. But where does the Church Council derive the authority to grant this power?  In fact, the Constitution seems to deny this authority to the Church Council. Article 7.23 states: “The standards for acceptance and continuance of pastors in the ordained ministry of this church shall be set forth in the bylaws.” Only the Churchwide Assembly can adopt bylaws.

I’m only a humble parliamentarian and not an attorney, but is seems to me the Church Council exceeded its authority.

Jim, did you see this post by Wayne this morning?  Wayne has clearly marked the place where authority has been exceeded.

The "humble parliamentarian" need not be too humble.  He's absolutely right.  Thanks for pointing out this earlier post.

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3872 on: November 08, 2010, 01:23:55 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes (to me):
If your alleged support of the ELCA was more than just the blathering of a bitter old man,

I comment:
This is the fourth or fifth or more time that I have been subject to this kind of language from Mr. Erdner. I have asked the moderators for relief, but none has come. So I choose to point out to all here just how Mr. Erdner, time after time, chooses to engage in "discussion." Others may also note his name-calling and mean language in other instances and against other people.  
I said long ago, when Mr. Erdner's invective and style of posting arose, that it would ruin discussion in this forum.
Just sayin'
Everyone make your own evaluation.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 01:30:42 PM by Charles_Austin »

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3873 on: November 08, 2010, 01:29:23 PM »
But were you not pleased, Mr. Erdner, when the synod stepped in and removed the troublemakers who had exceeded their pastoral authority and were ruining several congregations because of their antics?

Papster

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3874 on: November 08, 2010, 01:47:20 PM »
I have read with great interest about the plight of Zion Lutheran Church in Clear Lake and their pastors in Christ. I have read all the correspondence posted from Bishop Ullestad of the Northeastern Iowa Synod and the congregation. I have followed all the posts since the initial report. When viewing all this, one scripture verse keeps coming to my mind; "You will know them by their fruits." Matt. 7:16a, and 7:20 Actually one should read the verse in its entire context in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt. 7:15-20. I believe they are Jesus' words, even in the judgement of the Jesus Seminar people.

What are the fruits that we are seeing as a consequence of the '09 CWA actions? Are they good fruits or are they another kind of fruit? What kind of fruits are we seeing in ELCA churchwide leadership and synodical bishops? What kind of fruits are we seeing in congregational life? For those on either side of the issue I think it is a bitter fruit, because neither side is happy. And in the meantime, the church, "this church," the ELCA suffers. Can any good come of this?

Another book keeps coming to mind in all of this, C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters." It was hypothetical fiction, but does it say anything now about what is happening in "this church?"

Anyone wishing to dialogue on these questions?

Yes, we need to look at the fruit since Aug 2009 -- but we should also look at the fruit our congregations were producing with homosexual folks prior to 2009. How much did our position contribute to suicides of homosexual youth? How much did our position push homosexuals away from the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ?

The ELCA was and still is a "welcoming church" if we believed what we proclaimed. We did not wittingly contribute to the suicides of homosexual persons. There is always more to the story. However now, on the basis of the actions taken at the '09 CWA and subsequent actions since the CWA the ELCA is wittingly contributing to the spiritual anguish of countless pastors, congregations, and faithful servants of Christ.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 02:08:54 PM by Papster »

ptmccain

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3875 on: November 08, 2010, 01:48:32 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

 :-\

Cathy Ammlung

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3876 on: November 08, 2010, 01:50:11 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

 :-\

 ;D {SNORT}

Thank you for sending my Diet Dr. Pepper out my nose and onto the computer screen, Rev. McCain!!

Are you volunteering your services, by the way?

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3877 on: November 08, 2010, 01:50:28 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

 :-\

Take the log out of your own eye before commenting.

And get serious!

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3878 on: November 08, 2010, 01:53:38 PM »
Luke 13:34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ...

As an outsider watching this conversation, while welcoming the few who come to us, wounded and damaged from the sophistry and insanity of the last several years, I can do no less than weep. This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion, and the people in the back cars are still enjoying their meals.

19:41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.

That this is sad is an understatement of enormous proportion. That it effects millions of people and thousands of churches is tragic. I expected that it would take many months for pastors and churches to see what has been done to them. I should have expected that once the handwriting was clear on the walls, there would also be a time of paralysis from shock. Let us know when we can help. You have our prayers already.

TV
TAALC Pastor

Pilgrim

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3879 on: November 08, 2010, 01:55:56 PM »
Tim notes: Nix on the couples therapy...a "realilty" TV show is in the offin'!!! Royaltries might even shore up the flagging financial status of ELCA headquarters!!!  ;D ;D
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

hillwilliam

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3880 on: November 08, 2010, 02:25:05 PM »
Page 45 of the Manual has been quoted a couple of times as the basis for the bishop's actions against a clergy who “enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof.”

Had these pastors joined an LCMC congregation -- a congregation of another church body?

When you searched through the LCMC governing documents I posted links to earlier, where did you find any specific language that said that the called minister of an LCMC congregation was required to be an individual member of the LCMC? The ELCA does have such specific language in its governing documents. Where does the LCMC have similar language?

Were the pastors members of an LCMC congregation? Where the pastors serving an LCMC congregation? When the congregation joined LCMC, all their members, including the pastors, also became members of the LCMC. Probably if the pastors had resigned their membership from Zion and their calls to the congregation, they would remain on the ELCA clergy roster.

One more time:

1.  The bishop strenuously argues that the church's attempt to join the LCMC is completely invalid - it is neither legal nor efficacious.

2.  The bishop strenuously then argues that the pastors are being removed because the church left the ELCA to join the LCMC.


By the way - your pitiful red herring about the effect on young homosexuals committing suicide is exactly that.  To his date I have counseled 6 youth - dealing wiith that issue.  Not one has committed suicide - and some are still struggling with the issue and the spiritual implications of such feelings.  To claim that calling a sin a sin is the root cause of suicide is a either a bold lie or deliberate foolishness. Poor pastoral care is the answer, but assuring the sinner that a devotion to a sinful lifestyle leaves them "ok" with God is not pastoral at all.

No it is psychology.  ;)

None of the psychologists I work with back that kind of delusion.

I haven't run into any psychologists that would support it either. My brother in law is a psychologist and a backpacking buddy was also. They wouldn't have endorsed that position but they aren't particularly politically correct. I have also worked with psychiatrists and found them to be uniformly looney tunes.

Cathy Ammlung

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3881 on: November 08, 2010, 02:28:09 PM »
Quote
This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion, and the people in the back cars are still enjoying their meals.

Just so. Bishop Emeritus (DE/MD Synod) George Mocko said, several years before the 2009 CWA, that this would be a train wreck and the only question was how fast the train would be going. His hope was that we could somehow slow it down.

That may not be possible any longer. I doubt anyone is going to be placidly eating their Happy Meals in the diner car for too much longer...

The really maddening thing about the situation in NE Iowa is that if the Bishop had been able to step back and take several deep breaths, he might - just might - have been able to not make the situation any worse. He is right in saying that if the congregation tries to do another second vote, they would be out of line. The constitutional mandate to do things properly is incumbent upon them, and in one of his letters he notes that they can't just "redo the second vote until they get the outcome they want". There is a procedure that everyone, including the congregation members desiring to leave the ELCA, need to follow "in order to fulfill all righteousness," if that isn't blasphemous to say about such a sad mess.

On the other hand, if a congregation wants to AVOID ALTOGETHER a vote to leave the ELCA, but still actually leave (and I am NOT advocating this methodology; but, as with all loopholes, someone is bound to exploit it), apparently in NE Iowa, at least, all they have to do is vote to affiliate with LCMC and the Bishop will do the heavy lifting for them and declare them a non-ELCA congregation just like that. Like I said, perhaps he could have stepped back and pondered the implications of what he was saying.

Dadoo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3882 on: November 08, 2010, 03:12:33 PM »
Might I interrupt with this message from Faith in Christ Springfield Ohio:

Faith in Christ took it first vote yesterday afternoon.  50 for the resolution - 5 against the resolution.
91% approval to dissafilliate from ELCA and to affilitate with NALC.
Second vote will be early February 2011, most likely February 13th.

40% of the Mad River (Springfield conference) is now in the process of leaving.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Maryland Brian

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3883 on: November 08, 2010, 03:14:17 PM »
But were you not pleased, Mr. Erdner, when the synod stepped in and removed the troublemakers who had exceeded their pastoral authority and were ruining several congregations because of their antics?

The synod had been warned bringing in an Industrial Arts Foundation advocate from Chicago would be dangerous.  It got so bad I knew a pastor who obtained a concealed carry permit when he received pictures of his daughter getting off her school bus with the warning, "Stop opposing us."  He was frightened for himself and his family.  The synod paid Honeywell's salary.  And then in blew up in their faces.  I served in the North Hills right after all that and, IMHO, only the steady hand of Bishop MCoid turned it around as he came into office just after the mess.

So perhaps the moral would have been to keep the troublemakers out to begin with, you know, like LCNA. You do remember that some of the LCNA folks were trained by the same group, yes?
 

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3884 on: November 08, 2010, 03:17:47 PM »
ptmccain, whose postings sometimes contain their own form of smarmy, belittling language, can make fun of my complaint if he wishes to do so. Actually, I'm not surprised that he does, for his sensitivity level has been challenged by a number of participants here.
But my complaint stands, as does my invitation to evaluate the character of the name-caller.