Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817233 times)

pr dtp

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3780 on: November 08, 2010, 02:07:01 AM »
What basis do you have for this claim?

from Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Revision issued July 2010

B. No Dual Roster Membership: An ordained minister of this church who enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof, shall cease to be a member of this church. The ordained minister’s name shall be removed from the roster of ordained ministers by the bishop of the synod, who shall report the action to the secretary of this church and to the next Synod Assembly. (p. 45)


Of course, that wasn't your claim - this was:

Our governing documents and policies state clearly that an ELCA pastor cannot be rostered in another church body. The pastors were. As such, they forfeited their right to the ELCA clergy roster.

So where is your proof of this?

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3781 on: November 08, 2010, 04:52:14 AM »
Is it possible, Steven, that the overwhelming majority of ELCA Lutherans do not believe that their leadership has betrayed them?
Is it possible that the overwhelming majority of ELCA Lutherans do not oppose the August decisions?
Is it possible that the overwhelming majority of ELCA Lutherans (including people who disagree with those August decisions) still believe that this is a church worthy of their full support and participation?
Or is it only those who do oppose the August decisions who have the real deal, when it comes to being Christian, Lutheran or ELCA?

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3782 on: November 08, 2010, 07:10:15 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the issue on the congregations affiliating with LCMC, NOT the pastors?  yes, it is true that pastors cannot be dual affiliated, but we've been looking into the congregational end of it to see what, if anything, can be said about a congregation, and it appears that there is nothing at first glance. 

Team Hesse

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3783 on: November 08, 2010, 07:14:08 AM »

Is it possible that the overwhelming majority of ELCA Lutherans do not oppose the August decisions?


All things are possible, but the JTFII survey results and a scientifically valid poll conducted in 2005 agreed in their numbers that 57% of ELCA membership wanted no change in church policy concerning these matters and another 25% did not believe these matters should even be looked at. In task force deliberation, 82% was considered a consensus. The task force and leadership of the ELCA ignored these results at their own peril.
Thoughtful notice should also be given to the fact that in the election recently completed, the three judges who by judicial fiat forced public recognition of same-sex relationships in the state of Iowa all lost their seats on the state's Supreme Court. This is a very rare occurrence- the removal of incumbent judges by anything but retirement.
ELCA partisans can say whatever they wish but some are still going to notice that the emperor is buck naked!

Lou

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3784 on: November 08, 2010, 07:51:04 AM »
I suppose it depends on which way you turn your head when looking at the numbers. So maybe 43 percent favored the change and a larger number were indifferent to whether it changed or not. And among those who did not favor a change were, I suspect, thousands for whom it would not be a make-or-break issue and who could accept the change if it came even if they didn't like it initially (which was my situation when we agreed to ordain women).

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3785 on: November 08, 2010, 07:59:59 AM »
If a congregation leaves the ELCA, then we have the situation of an ELCA pastor serving - without proper authorization - a congregation not in the ELCA. Discipline can ensue.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3786 on: November 08, 2010, 08:04:03 AM »
What basis do you have for this claim?

from Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Revision issued July 2010

B. No Dual Roster Membership: An ordained minister of this church who enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof, shall cease to be a member of this church. The ordained minister’s name shall be removed from the roster of ordained ministers by the bishop of the synod, who shall report the action to the secretary of this church and to the next Synod Assembly. (p. 45)


Of course, that wasn't your claim - this was:

Our governing documents and policies state clearly that an ELCA pastor cannot be rostered in another church body. The pastors were. As such, they forfeited their right to the ELCA clergy roster.

So where is your proof of this?

The newspaper article that started this discussion, which included the line: "Pastors holding dual memberships — in this case, to both the ELCA and Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ — are not allowed by the ELCA."

The link to the letters between the bishop and the congregation, where the bishop had quoted the same section I did about dual rostering, and his statement that the pastors had "removed themselves from the roster."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

dkeener

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3787 on: November 08, 2010, 08:12:46 AM »
Truth isn't decided by majority vote or by what people can live with. There is a difference between picking the color of the carpet in the sanctuary and deciding whether or not as a pastor I will preach and teach in accordance with scripture. I really don't think that Jesus much cares about the former but I think that quite a few people will have some explaining to do on the second count.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3788 on: November 08, 2010, 08:20:48 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the issue on the congregations affiliating with LCMC, NOT the pastors?  yes, it is true that pastors cannot be dual affiliated, but we've been looking into the congregational end of it to see what, if anything, can be said about a congregation, and it appears that there is nothing at first glance. 

As I read the bishop's argument, it seems to be: the congregation joined LCMC; the pastors, by continuing to serve a congregation that belongs to a "schismatic group" after admonition by the bishop to resign, they removed themselves from the roster of the ELCA. (Normally when a pastor is called to a congregation, their membership then belongs in that congregation, thus whether or not the pastors were rostered with LCMC, they became members of LCMC when they stayed with the congregation.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3789 on: November 08, 2010, 08:25:13 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the issue on the congregations affiliating with LCMC, NOT the pastors?  yes, it is true that pastors cannot be dual affiliated, but we've been looking into the congregational end of it to see what, if anything, can be said about a congregation, and it appears that there is nothing at first glance.

Perhaps not, but it seems that an ELCA pastor is not to be a member of an LCMC congregation (we are required to be members of ELCA congregations) -- or perhaps more significantly, be called as pastor to an LCMC congregation. If I wanted to skirt around this issue, I could see an ELCA pastor resigning from the congregation, going on retired status, if eligible, join an ELCA congregation, then serve the LCMC congregation under a contractual basis.  
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 08:33:53 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3790 on: November 08, 2010, 08:30:33 AM »
All things are possible, but the JTFII survey results and a scientifically valid poll

I don't recall that there was any "scientifically valid poll" taken. Having been a psychology major, there are very stringent requirements for a poll to be scientifically valid.

Quote
Thoughtful notice should also be given to the fact that in the election recently completed, the three judges who by judicial fiat forced public recognition of same-sex relationships in the state of Iowa all lost their seats on the state's Supreme Court. This is a very rare occurrence- the removal of incumbent judges by anything but retirement.

Just because a majority of people disagree with an interpretation of a law, doesn't make it a wrong interpretation. Their three replacements could make exactly the same decision.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3791 on: November 08, 2010, 08:32:40 AM »
Truth isn't decided by majority vote or by what people can live with. There is a difference between picking the color of the carpet in the sanctuary and deciding whether or not as a pastor I will preach and teach in accordance with scripture. I really don't think that Jesus much cares about the former but I think that quite a few people will have some explaining to do on the second count.

And many of us believe that preaching and teaching in accordance with scriptures does not mean prohibiting committed same-gender relationships.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Keith Falk

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3792 on: November 08, 2010, 08:59:51 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the issue on the congregations affiliating with LCMC, NOT the pastors?  yes, it is true that pastors cannot be dual affiliated, but we've been looking into the congregational end of it to see what, if anything, can be said about a congregation, and it appears that there is nothing at first glance. 

As I read the bishop's argument, it seems to be: the congregation joined LCMC; the pastors, by continuing to serve a congregation that belongs to a "schismatic group" after admonition by the bishop to resign, they removed themselves from the roster of the ELCA. (Normally when a pastor is called to a congregation, their membership then belongs in that congregation, thus whether or not the pastors were rostered with LCMC, they became members of LCMC when they stayed with the congregation.)

Except... you are only partially correct.  The bishop is also arguing that the congregation's 2nd attempt at a 2nd vote was invalid because it was not in accordance with their constitution, thus the congregation has NEVER left the ELCA.  If the congregation has not left the ELCA, then the two pastors are serving, under call, as rostered ELCA pastors serving an ELCA congregation.

If you read posts carefully, particularly Erma's post, you will find that the first question which must be answered is this:  which of the two arguments presented by the bishop is the working, actual, argument to be advanced - because the bishop can't have it both ways.  Is it that the congregation has left the ELCA, joined LCMC, and thus the pastors are to be removed immediately from the roster (which then the follow-up becomes James' questions about whether or not policies and procedures can trump the constitution [I'm with him - they can't]) or is it that the 2nd attempt at a 2nd vote was invalid and thus the congregation has not left the ELCA, and they need to start the voting procedures all over again?
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Erma S. Wolf

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3793 on: November 08, 2010, 09:17:29 AM »
If a congregation leaves the ELCA, then we have the situation of an ELCA pastor serving - without proper authorization - a congregation not in the ELCA. Discipline can ensue.

Agreed.  Except in this case, the congregation's second vote to leave failed.  They are still in the ELCA!  Even if the congregation votes to be dually rostered in both the ELCA and the LCMC, that does not take them out of the ELCA.  Otherwise, why is the bishop threatening discipline??? (He can't discipline what isn''t under his or the synod's jurisdiction.)  A congregation voting to join LCMC is not the same thing as the pastors being dually rostered.  Say what you will about LCMC, to be rostered in LCMC requires certain steps being taken by the pastor, not by the congregation, in order for LCMC to officially receive them.  LCMC does have certain requirements and procedures for this, and there is no indication that the two pastors of the Clear Lake congregation had entered into this process. 

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3794 on: November 08, 2010, 09:22:03 AM »
  Chapter 20 of the ELCA Constitution and Bylaws is the (by now well-known) chapter that deals specifically with discipline

That is not the only chapter that deals with the ordained. I strong suspect that the basis for the bishop's actions come from Chapter 7 (a section quoted below) and, as the section indicates, other "governing documents" and "policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit." Perhaps significant in this and many cases, is the final requirement -- belonging to an ELCA congregation. If a rostered person's congregation votes to leave, to remain on the roster, the ordained (whether the congregation's pastor or even a retired pastor who's a member) would have to join an ELCA congregation.

7.31.11. Persons admitted to and continued in the ordained ministry of this church shall satisfactorily meet and maintain the following, as defined by this church in its governing documents and in policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit, reviewed by the Conference of Bishops, and adopted by the Church Council:
a. commitment to Christ;
b. acceptance of and adherence to the Confession of Faith of this church;
c. willingness and ability to serve in response to the needs of this church;
d. academic and practical qualifications for ministry, including leadership abilities and competence in interpersonal relationships;
e. commitment to lead a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ and in so doing to be an example in faithful service and holy living;
f. receipt and acceptance of a letter of call; and
g. membership in a congregation of this church.


All well and good, but you seem to have overlooked Erma's very pertinent question: If the congregation has failed to pass a vote to leave the ELCA, but has voted anyway to affiliate with the LCMC; and if the bishop maintains that this action was incompatible with their constitution, and therefore null and void; then the logical conclusion is that in the bishop's view the congregation is still a member of the ELCA (and probably in their own view as well, since they realize the vote to leave the ELCA failed). Ergo the pastors are, in fact, still members of, and under call to, an ELCA congregation. So how the heck does Chapter 7 apply?

Our governing documents and policies state clearly that an ELCA pastor cannot be rostered in another church body. The pastors were. As such, they forfeited their right to the ELCA clergy roster.

What basis do you have for the claim that the pastors were rostered in another church body? The LCMC has no requirement that congregations only call pastors "rostered" by the LCMC. Congregations in the LCMC have much more freedom in who they call than ELCA congregations.

From the LCMC bylaws:

2.01. Member churches of this association are authorized to call and ordain ministers pursuant to such standards as member churches may adopt from time to time. Called and ordained pastors of this association may belong to clergy rosters of another association or church. Member churches are not required to seek or receive approval from this association before calling a specific pastor or pastors and are free to call persons not on any list of pastors maintained by this association and are free to call persons to serve in a pastoral capacity regardless of whether or not such persons are identified on any LCMC list of pastors.

Bottom line, the fact that a pastor is preaching and presiding in an LCMC church is not evidence that he is "rostered" on the LCMC.