Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 842013 times)

Dadoo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3765 on: November 07, 2010, 05:45:46 PM »
However, it is a good indication of where the "boundaries" of a "bound conscience" will be.

Based on conversation on this forum, and incidents reported, it would appear that a "bound conscience" may well not permit:

An ELCA pastor to refuse to perform pastoral functions with a man or woman living in a homosexual relationship.
An ELCA pastor/congregation may not be allowed to withhold funds from Synod and churchwide offices.
An ELCA pastor/congregation may not be allowed to join an association of like-minded congregations.

Will an ELCA congregation be allowed to refuse the ministrations of a man or woman living in a homosexual relationship? May such services be imposed by an ELCA bishop on a congregation?

It seems that with just over a year since the August 09 decisions, the concept of "bound conscience" is becoming more clear in its limitations and definitions.

Aren't those fun questions, Paul? Does it not kinda wish you were ELCA and help us work it out?
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

ptmccain

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3766 on: November 07, 2010, 05:53:23 PM »
Nothing "fun" about the questions, Peter. They are deadly serious.

And, sure, if the ELCA would make me "pope" for a day, I'd get the whole mess straightened out, quick, fast and in a hurry.

But since I don't think there is much chance of that happening, the questions stand and I'll look forward to watching how they are addressed.

My my vantage point, the whole "bound conscience" thing remains a total sham, and recent events only server further to confirm my opinion.


Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Conflict Ramped up between Clear Lake Pastors and NE Iowa
« Reply #3767 on: November 07, 2010, 06:02:06 PM »
I believe that there is also a provision, like in the Military, where the accused can demand a hearing process, in order that their full case is impartially heard...  Kind of like an officer can insist on a "Courts Marshall" hearing under the UCMJ.  Though I do admit that I am out of my depth on this point...
Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Yes.  Under Chapter 20, the accused has a right to a hearing. 

However, if the bishop is not acting under Chapter 20, but Chapter 7, and concludes that a pastor has revoked his/her status on the ELCA clergy roster by no longer meeting the criteria, it is not a matter of discipline.

Chapter 7 does not give the bishop the power to decide unilaterally to remove a pastor from the roster.  Instead, Chapter 7 points to Chapter 20 and notes that the rules there apply to pastors.  A violation by a pastor of Chapter 7 would subject the pastor to discipline under Chapter 20. 

Think about it.  If you were right, a bishop could circumvent Chapter 20 at will by simply claiming to be acting instead under Chapter 7. 

In congregations members are removed for not meeting membership requirements without going through the disciplinary process to remove them. This is especially true if a pastor/council learns that the inactive members has joined another congregation.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3768 on: November 07, 2010, 06:04:53 PM »
ptmccain writes:
Based on conversation on this forum, and incidents reported, it would appear that a "bound conscience" may well not permit:
An ELCA pastor to refuse to perform pastoral functions with a man or woman living in a homosexual relationship.

I ask:
Where do you get that idea.

ptmccain writes:
An ELCA pastor/congregation may not be allowed to withhold funds from Synod and churchwide offices.
I comment:
Partially true. Always has been partially true. The August decisions did not change this. If you say "withhold some funds," I see no problem. I have always said a refusal to send any mission support should be cause for discipline.

ptmccain writes:
An ELCA pastor/congregation may not be allowed to join an association of like-minded congregations.
I comment:
Depends. And so what? Could an LCMS congregation join a fellowship totally opposed to the LCMS?

Glenn Ryder

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3769 on: November 07, 2010, 06:40:43 PM »
News from the Pacific Northwest:

On Sept. 19, 2010 'Our Savior's Lutheran Church' Stanwood, Washington had it's 2nd vote to leave the ELCA. The motion passed by a 88% margin. It then voted to join the LCMC by a 95% margin.  Source: Congregation's website.

On Oct. 24, 'Prince of Peace Lutheran Church', Everett, Washington had it's 1st vote to leave the ELCA. The motion passed by a 75% margin. It will hold it's 2nd vote in late January 2011. Source: I talked to their pastor over phone.

On Nov. 7 2010, today, 'St. Mark Lutheran Church', Seattle, Washington voted to join the NALC. The vote was 37 for, 4 against and 2 abstaining. Source:
I drove the 7 miles from my church to St Mark after our morning worship. I missed the vote but stayed for the celebration afterwards and talked to their pastor and several members. Bishop Paull Spring was on hand and apparently preached at St. Mark's morning service.


That's all for now!



Glenn

pr dtp

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3770 on: November 07, 2010, 07:15:37 PM »
News from the Pacific Northwest:

On Sept. 19, 2010 'Our Savior's Lutheran Church' Stanwood, Washington had it's 2nd vote to leave the ELCA. The motion passed by a 88% margin. It then voted to join the LCMC by a 95% margin.  Source: Congregation's website.

On Oct. 24, 'Prince of Peace Lutheran Church', Everett, Washington had it's 1st vote to leave the ELCA. The motion passed by a 75% margin. It will hold it's 2nd vote in late January 2011. Source: I talked to their pastor over phone.

On Nov. 7 2010, today, 'St. Mark Lutheran Church', Seattle, Washington voted to join the NALC. The vote was 37 for, 4 against and 2 abstaining. Source:
I drove the 7 miles from my church to St Mark after our morning worship. I missed the vote but stayed for the celebration afterwards and talked to their pastor and several members. Bishop Paull Spring was on hand and apparently preached at St. Mark's morning service.


That's all for now!

May all of those affected find rest in this day.



Glenn

Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3771 on: November 07, 2010, 07:34:32 PM »
  Chapter 20 of the ELCA Constitution and Bylaws is the (by now well-known) chapter that deals specifically with discipline

That is not the only chapter that deals with the ordained. I strong suspect that the basis for the bishop's actions come from Chapter 7 (a section quoted below) and, as the section indicates, other "governing documents" and "policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit." Perhaps significant in this and many cases, is the final requirement -- belonging to an ELCA congregation. If a rostered person's congregation votes to leave, to remain on the roster, the ordained (whether the congregation's pastor or even a retired pastor who's a member) would have to join an ELCA congregation.

7.31.11. Persons admitted to and continued in the ordained ministry of this church shall satisfactorily meet and maintain the following, as defined by this church in its governing documents and in policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit, reviewed by the Conference of Bishops, and adopted by the Church Council:
a. commitment to Christ;
b. acceptance of and adherence to the Confession of Faith of this church;
c. willingness and ability to serve in response to the needs of this church;
d. academic and practical qualifications for ministry, including leadership abilities and competence in interpersonal relationships;
e. commitment to lead a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ and in so doing to be an example in faithful service and holy living;
f. receipt and acceptance of a letter of call; and
g. membership in a congregation of this church.


All well and good, but you seem to have overlooked Erma's very pertinent question: If the congregation has failed to pass a vote to leave the ELCA, but has voted anyway to affiliate with the LCMC; and if the bishop maintains that this action was incompatible with their constitution, and therefore null and void; then the logical conclusion is that in the bishop's view the congregation is still a member of the ELCA (and probably in their own view as well, since they realize the vote to leave the ELCA failed). Ergo the pastors are, in fact, still members of, and under call to, an ELCA congregation. So how the heck does Chapter 7 apply?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3772 on: November 07, 2010, 08:24:31 PM »
ptmccain continues to obsess over the "what-ifs" he fabricates concerning the situation in the ELCA.
Might it be fair to toss a question or two back?
What if an LCMS pastor joins Planned Parenthood and rises to be on the board or an officer?
What if an LCMS pastor leads his congregation into full eucharistic fellowship with an ELCA parish or even (horrors!) a Presbyterian church?
What if an LCMS pastor writes a book departing from the particular interpretation of scripture endorsed by that denomination?
What if an LCMS pastor - his conscience "bound" - advocates for full inclusion of gays and lesbians in the church, or for civic endorsement of same sex unions?
Would ptmccain object if a district president intervened in the ministry of such a person or even removed them from their public ministry?

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3773 on: November 07, 2010, 09:43:04 PM »
Just trying to be helpful while I watch TV and surf the web (got wireless internet a few weeks ago.  Lazy multitasking is fun!)

1.  Problematic.  There would be some explaining that needs to take place.
2.  Much more problematic.  Not sure if this is the right place to use the word schismatic, but this would cause a rip in the fabric.
3.  A book's a book.  The error of this pastor's thoughts would be quickly exposed.   ;)
4.  The pastor can advocate all he wants. 
5.  I wouldn't object because I believe the DP would intervene in a helpful way and seek first to understand what the issue is and whether the issue causes a pastor to be removed.  It wouldn't be easy, but how many things are?

That wasn't so hard.  What other questions are you curious about, Charles? 

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Conflict Ramped up between Clear Lake Pastors and NE Iowa
« Reply #3774 on: November 07, 2010, 10:07:36 PM »
How can Bishop Ullestad ...

Swartling.  His fingerprints are all over this

kyrie eleison, spt+.

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3775 on: November 07, 2010, 10:59:40 PM »

ptmccain writes:
An ELCA pastor/congregation may not be allowed to join an association of like-minded congregations.
I comment:
Depends. And so what? Could an LCMS congregation join a fellowship totally opposed to the LCMS?

One of the problems in this question is that no one wants to be clear about what is being opposed and what is being supported. 

Opposing the actions of the Churchwide Assembly is not opposing the ELCA.

Opposing the leadership of Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson is not opposing the ELCA.

Opposing the puppet Conference of Bishops (strings operated by the Secretary, voice by the PB) is not opposing the ELCA.

Opposing the teachings of unaccountable professors and instructors in ELCA seminaries is not opposing the ELCA.

The ELCA is also a few thousand ELCA congregations with a 3-4 million Christians who are being actively betrayed by much of the top leadership in the Churchwide and Synodical expressions of the ELCA, a leadership that most of these congregations and Christians simply do not believe that top leadershp would do such a thing.

But most everyone seems to have bought the assumption that the ELCA is everything except those congregations and Christians.

I do not oppose the ELCA.  I support her Statement of Faith, her purpose, her mission.  My desire is that her leadership would do the same.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3776 on: November 08, 2010, 12:48:56 AM »
  Chapter 20 of the ELCA Constitution and Bylaws is the (by now well-known) chapter that deals specifically with discipline

That is not the only chapter that deals with the ordained. I strong suspect that the basis for the bishop's actions come from Chapter 7 (a section quoted below) and, as the section indicates, other "governing documents" and "policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit." Perhaps significant in this and many cases, is the final requirement -- belonging to an ELCA congregation. If a rostered person's congregation votes to leave, to remain on the roster, the ordained (whether the congregation's pastor or even a retired pastor who's a member) would have to join an ELCA congregation.

7.31.11. Persons admitted to and continued in the ordained ministry of this church shall satisfactorily meet and maintain the following, as defined by this church in its governing documents and in policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit, reviewed by the Conference of Bishops, and adopted by the Church Council:
a. commitment to Christ;
b. acceptance of and adherence to the Confession of Faith of this church;
c. willingness and ability to serve in response to the needs of this church;
d. academic and practical qualifications for ministry, including leadership abilities and competence in interpersonal relationships;
e. commitment to lead a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ and in so doing to be an example in faithful service and holy living;
f. receipt and acceptance of a letter of call; and
g. membership in a congregation of this church.


All well and good, but you seem to have overlooked Erma's very pertinent question: If the congregation has failed to pass a vote to leave the ELCA, but has voted anyway to affiliate with the LCMC; and if the bishop maintains that this action was incompatible with their constitution, and therefore null and void; then the logical conclusion is that in the bishop's view the congregation is still a member of the ELCA (and probably in their own view as well, since they realize the vote to leave the ELCA failed). Ergo the pastors are, in fact, still members of, and under call to, an ELCA congregation. So how the heck does Chapter 7 apply?

Our governing documents and policies state clearly that an ELCA pastor cannot be rostered in another church body. The pastors were. As such, they forfeited their right to the ELCA clergy roster.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3777 on: November 08, 2010, 12:52:17 AM »
  Chapter 20 of the ELCA Constitution and Bylaws is the (by now well-known) chapter that deals specifically with discipline

That is not the only chapter that deals with the ordained. I strong suspect that the basis for the bishop's actions come from Chapter 7 (a section quoted below) and, as the section indicates, other "governing documents" and "policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit." Perhaps significant in this and many cases, is the final requirement -- belonging to an ELCA congregation. If a rostered person's congregation votes to leave, to remain on the roster, the ordained (whether the congregation's pastor or even a retired pastor who's a member) would have to join an ELCA congregation.

7.31.11. Persons admitted to and continued in the ordained ministry of this church shall satisfactorily meet and maintain the following, as defined by this church in its governing documents and in policies developed by the appropriate churchwide unit, reviewed by the Conference of Bishops, and adopted by the Church Council:
a. commitment to Christ;
b. acceptance of and adherence to the Confession of Faith of this church;
c. willingness and ability to serve in response to the needs of this church;
d. academic and practical qualifications for ministry, including leadership abilities and competence in interpersonal relationships;
e. commitment to lead a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ and in so doing to be an example in faithful service and holy living;
f. receipt and acceptance of a letter of call; and
g. membership in a congregation of this church.


All well and good, but you seem to have overlooked Erma's very pertinent question: If the congregation has failed to pass a vote to leave the ELCA, but has voted anyway to affiliate with the LCMC; and if the bishop maintains that this action was incompatible with their constitution, and therefore null and void; then the logical conclusion is that in the bishop's view the congregation is still a member of the ELCA (and probably in their own view as well, since they realize the vote to leave the ELCA failed). Ergo the pastors are, in fact, still members of, and under call to, an ELCA congregation. So how the heck does Chapter 7 apply?

Our governing documents and policies state clearly that an ELCA pastor cannot be rostered in another church body. The pastors were. As such, they forfeited their right to the ELCA clergy roster.

What basis do you have for this claim?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3778 on: November 08, 2010, 12:59:02 AM »
What basis do you have for this claim?

from Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Revision issued July 2010

B. No Dual Roster Membership: An ordained minister of this church who enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof, shall cease to be a member of this church. The ordained minister’s name shall be removed from the roster of ordained ministers by the bishop of the synod, who shall report the action to the secretary of this church and to the next Synod Assembly. (p. 45)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3779 on: November 08, 2010, 01:00:22 AM »
What basis do you have for this claim?

from Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Revision issued July 2010

B. No Dual Roster Membership: An ordained minister of this church who enters the ordained ministry of another church body, or who joins a religious group or congregation of another church body (except as provided in 7.41.17.), or who serves a group schismatic from this church or from a congregation thereof, shall cease to be a member of this church. The ordained minister’s name shall be removed from the roster of ordained ministers by the bishop of the synod, who shall report the action to the secretary of this church and to the next Synod Assembly. (p. 45)

No.  What factual basis do you have for your claim?  Not that it matters.  The bishop did not base his action on a claim that the pastors were dual rostered.

Thus, this is another red herring.