Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 841677 times)

Russ Saltzman

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3270 on: October 06, 2010, 03:14:50 PM »
One mis-statement in the Rapid City report: with 200 congregations by the end of 2011, the NALC will not be the 4th largest Lutheran Church in the world.  In the U.S. won't that still put us behind ELCA, LCMS, LCMC, and WELS?   How many congregations are in WELS and ELS? 

Ken

As a "synod," fourth largest is correct. Fourth in the United States, not the world. But if you are counting "associations" of congregations into the mix, then who knows?

As the terms are used practically, it is a question of how much "churchly density" one wants. The degree and depth of organization hardly matters (NALC is slim and lean in that department), but it is a process of thinking about "church," and the nature of congregational accountability to the synod and to other congregations. Associations have less "density," emphasizing congregational autonomy, and synods have more. Somewhere there should be a happy balance between "elitist" synodical structures and "rampant" congregationalism (though a rampant congregation here and there might be nice; wish I had one). Either way, any structure (synodical or associational) should be a feedback loop, church-to-church, "national" to "local," with lines of mutual responsibility with a trusted sense of accountability to one another.

The churchwide ELCA became a regulatory agency as congregations asserted what little autonomy was left to them, with some bishops, for instance, going so far as refusing to sign letters of call here and there for unfavored pastors. Had the churchwide ELCA possessed a feed-back loop, a congregational ratification process for major disciplinary, constitutional, and social statement questions, I do not believe we would have arrived at this unhappy pass. But churchwide did "what was best" for congregations, synods did what was best for synods (there were complaints very early about the "sixty-five barons"), and both of them told congregations to pay the bill.

But then again, who the hell cares? It is over, done, and I don't feel like crying about it anymore.
Russell E Saltzman
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Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3271 on: October 06, 2010, 06:21:07 PM »
One mis-statement in the Rapid City report: with 200 congregations by the end of 2011, the NALC will not be the 4th largest Lutheran Church in the world.  In the U.S. won't that still put us behind ELCA, LCMS, LCMC, and WELS?   How many congregations are in WELS and ELS? 

Ken

Another misstatement: at 400 members, this is not the largest church west of the Mississippi to leave.

Although I know that in South Dakota, they often are unaware that there are Lutherans west of the Rockies.  ;)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Virgil

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3272 on: October 06, 2010, 06:30:47 PM »
In fact the article says: making it the largest ELCA church west of the Missouri River to depart to date. It's not written clearly here at all, but I think the writer is trying to say largest ELCA church west of the Missouri R and also in the state of South Dakota. Folks like to say West River in that state.

One mis-statement in the Rapid City report: with 200 congregations by the end of 2011, the NALC will not be the 4th largest Lutheran Church in the world.  In the U.S. won't that still put us behind ELCA, LCMS, LCMC, and WELS?   How many congregations are in WELS and ELS? 

Ken

Another misstatement: at 400 members, this is not the largest church west of the Mississippi to leave.

Although I know that in South Dakota, they often are unaware that there are Lutherans west of the Rockies.  ;)

LutherMan

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3273 on: October 06, 2010, 06:47:31 PM »
WELS has 1,279 congregations according to 2009 stats.

There are approximately 21,729 members in 142 established congregations and 12 mission churches in the ELS.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3274 on: October 06, 2010, 07:10:26 PM »
The NALC has some ways to go before it is the fourth largest body of Lutheran churches.

The ELCA is reporting over 10,000 congregations (the current Yearbook says 10,239 as of 7/1/09; the website says 10,348, but there's no way we've added 109 congregations in the last year).

LCMS has 6150 congregations.  

WELS has 1279 congregations, with a baptized membership of just under 390,000.  (Hmm, Pastor Zip needs to update the figures on his US Links page.)

LCMC reports reaching 500 congregations as of mid-August, but that includes missions still being organized.

The AFLC reports 275 congregations in the US and Canada (I count 11 in Canada).

The ELS has 142 congregations according to Wikipedia.

AALC was 78 congregations in 2009, and received 5 at its latest convention.

The Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has 70 congregations in the US and Canada.

NALC's website currently lists 29 "congregations and worshiping communities," though clearly that will be increasing significantly in the next few months.

Pax, Steven+
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Bergs

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3275 on: October 06, 2010, 07:18:51 PM »
The NALC has some ways to go before it is the fourth largest body of Lutheran churches.

The ELCA is reporting over 10,000 congregations (the current Yearbook says 10,239 as of 7/1/09; the website says 10,348, but there's no way we've added 109 congregations in the last year).

LCMS has 6150 congregations.  
WELS has 1279 congregations, with a baptized membership of just under 390,000.  (Hmm, Pastor Zip needs to update the figures on his US Links page.)
LCMC reports reaching 500 congregations as of mid-August, but that includes missions still being organized.
The AFLC reports 275 congregations in the US and Canada (I count 11 in Canada).
The ELS has 142 congregations according to Wikipedia.
AALC was 78 congregations in 2009, and received 5 at its latest convention.
The Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has 70 congregations in the US and Canada.
NALC's website currently lists 29 "congregations and worshiping communities," though clearly that will be increasing significantly in the next few months.

Pax, Steven+

Don't forget the Lutheran Brethren at 123 congregations in the US and Canada.  They also claim over 1,500 in Africa and Asia. 
http://www.clba.org/about-us

Brian J Bergs
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George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3276 on: October 06, 2010, 08:03:15 PM »
WELS has 1,279 congregations according to 2009 stats.

There are approximately 21,729 members in 142 established congregations and 12 mission churches in the ELS.

Is that 21,729 Baptized, Confirmed, or Active members?

G.Edward

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3277 on: October 07, 2010, 01:21:05 AM »
True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures.

Tim Christ writes: In May of 2009 I commented: The leisured wealth of the western world has succeeded primarily, it would seem to me, in throwing narcissitic gasoline on an already ego-centristic individualism run amok. Brians "individualistic" exegetical posture simply affirms same and I continue to stand by that observation.

And I argue that the "individualistic" exegetical posture comes from Luther. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but Luther placed his own interpretation of scripture and tradition against the teaching of the Church in his day, he set in motion the individualism that we have today. The fact that the ELCA was unwilling to establish a ministerium or to give the Conference of Bishops any power and authority continues the practice of giving individuals power and authority.

Except that Luther's interpretion was grounded in Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, and other leading theologians of the Church, and did not "do a new thing" as much as return to a very old thing and bring it to light in a new day.

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3278 on: October 07, 2010, 11:48:06 AM »

And I argue that the "individualistic" exegetical posture comes from Luther. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but Luther placed his own interpretation of scripture and tradition against the teaching of the Church in his day, he set in motion the individualism that we have today. The fact that the ELCA was unwilling to establish a ministerium or to give the Conference of Bishops any power and authority continues the practice of giving individuals power and authority.

Except that Luther's interpretion was grounded in Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, and other leading theologians of the Church, and did not "do a new thing" as much as return to a very old thing and bring it to light in a new day.
One must recognize that Pastor Stoffregen's references to "Luther" really have little to do with the 16th century Augustinian monk and Wittenberg professor who sought to address the abuses of the medieval church he witnessed in Saxony by an appeal to the authority of Holy Scripture.

Marshall Hahn
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:20:51 PM by Marshall_Hahn »

TravisW

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3279 on: October 07, 2010, 12:11:59 PM »

And I argue that the "individualistic" exegetical posture comes from Luther. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but Luther placed his own interpretation of scripture and tradition against the teaching of the Church in his day, he set in motion the individualism that we have today. The fact that the ELCA was unwilling to establish a ministerium or to give the Conference of Bishops any power and authority continues the practice of giving individuals power and authority.

Except that Luther's interpretion was grounded in Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, and other leading theologians of the Church, and did not "do a new thing" as much as return to a very old thing and bring it to light in a new day.
One must recognize that Pastor Stoffregen's references to "Luther" really have little to do with the 15th century Augustinian monk and Wittenberg professor who sought to address the abuses of the medieval church he witnessed in Saxony by an appeal to the authority of Holy Scripture.

Marshall Hahn

"Luther" is entirely a construct of the reader.  Sure, we can make a mental note that the term refers to a 16th century Augustinian monk, but what does that mean?  The reader applies their own lens of what "Luther" means and represents as a character in a place and time.  Thus, we can never really be 100% certain of which perception of "Luther" is correct.   ;)

Personally, I like to think of the Jerry Van Dyke character on TV's "Coach". 

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3280 on: October 07, 2010, 01:33:17 PM »
Pastor Hahn writes:
One must recognize that Pastor Stoffregen's references to "Luther" really have little to do with the 15th century Augustinian monk and Wittenberg professor who sought to address the abuses of the medieval church he witnessed in Saxony by an appeal to the authority of Holy Scripture.

I respond:
No, "one" need not recognize that at all. And once again we have a someone denouncing a comment simply because a certain person made it. Sad. And unfair.

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3281 on: October 07, 2010, 01:46:23 PM »
Pastor Hahn writes:
One must recognize that Pastor Stoffregen's references to "Luther" really have little to do with the 15th century Augustinian monk and Wittenberg professor who sought to address the abuses of the medieval church he witnessed in Saxony by an appeal to the authority of Holy Scripture.

I respond:
No, "one" need not recognize that at all. And once again we have a someone denouncing a comment simply because a certain person made it. Sad. And unfair.
Not at all, Pastor Austin.  The comments are denounced because they are misleading, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in the responses given to them.  Still, there is indeed a certain sadness in seeing Brother Martin's views misrepresented.

Marshall Hahn

DCharlton

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3282 on: October 07, 2010, 02:24:39 PM »
Pastor Hahn writes:
One must recognize that Pastor Stoffregen's references to "Luther" really have little to do with the 15th century Augustinian monk and Wittenberg professor who sought to address the abuses of the medieval church he witnessed in Saxony by an appeal to the authority of Holy Scripture.

I respond:
No, "one" need not recognize that at all. And once again we have a someone denouncing a comment simply because a certain person made it. Sad. And unfair.

Yet if one adopts Pastor Stoffregens' espistemological presuppostions it is a true statement.  According to Brian, all any person truly "knows" about anything is their own feelings, perceptions, and thoughts about it.  They know nothing about the objective reality of the thing.  Futhermore, the only reason that one would accept a third party's account of that thing is because they have chosen to do so. Even the choice to accept another person's account has only to do with the subjective feelings, perceptions and thoughts and has nothing to do with the objective reality.

Pastor Hahn is simply paraphrasing what Brian has been trying to teach us all along, and furthermore, following Brian's method, we can only conclude that Pastor Hahn's views are sincerely held.  Hence, they are as "true" as any statement could be.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:26:13 PM by DCharlton »
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George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3283 on: October 08, 2010, 02:02:22 PM »
Pastor Hahn writes:
One must recognize that Pastor Stoffregen's references to "Luther" really have little to do with the 15th century Augustinian monk and Wittenberg professor who sought to address the abuses of the medieval church he witnessed in Saxony by an appeal to the authority of Holy Scripture.

I respond:
No, "one" need not recognize that at all. And once again we have a someone denouncing a comment simply because a certain person made it. Sad. And unfair.
Not at all, Pastor Austin.  The comments are denounced because they are misleading, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in the responses given to them.  Still, there is indeed a certain sadness in seeing Brother Martin's views misrepresented.

Marshall Hahn

I fail to see how a certain level of "consider the source" isn't a valid component of understanding anything posted in here. The posts of those participants who do more than the occaisional drive-by post are part of a "collected works". It is impossible to read the posts of anyone who post frequently without taking that participant's prior posts into consideration. That includes things said and things left unsaid.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3284 on: October 08, 2010, 02:36:56 PM »
True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures.

Tim Christ writes: In May of 2009 I commented: The leisured wealth of the western world has succeeded primarily, it would seem to me, in throwing narcissitic gasoline on an already ego-centristic individualism run amok. Brians "individualistic" exegetical posture simply affirms same and I continue to stand by that observation.

And I argue that the "individualistic" exegetical posture comes from Luther. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but Luther placed his own interpretation of scripture and tradition against the teaching of the Church in his day, he set in motion the individualism that we have today. The fact that the ELCA was unwilling to establish a ministerium or to give the Conference of Bishops any power and authority continues the practice of giving individuals power and authority.

Except that Luther's interpretion was grounded in Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, and other leading theologians of the Church, and did not "do a new thing" as much as return to a very old thing and bring it to light in a new day.

Yes, that was the interpretation that Luther and his followers put on his "reforms". That isn't how their opponents looked at them.
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