Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 841667 times)

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3255 on: October 05, 2010, 03:38:41 PM »
I don't know why, for example, if the ELCA thought it had discerned the leading of the Holy Spirit to take the action it took relative to HSGT, we did not lay plans to submit our discernment to others throughout the Church for testing before we engaged in any changes in our common life.

We didn't do that either when the predecessor bodies were led to ordain women. Luther didn't do that when he allowed priests to be married. For good or ill, Luther, more or less, took away the authority of the Church and replaced it with the authority of Holy Scriptures -- and each person's/group's interpretation of it. Thus, even among Lutherans, we don't agree.
But in this instance we accepted neither - neither the authority of the Church nor the authority of Scripture.  If we had honored the authority of Scripture we would not have been satisfied with the argument "there are two differing views concerning homosexual behavior in the church, so we will allow both", we would have examined both views to determine which one has greater Scriptural support.  But we did not do this, belieing any commitment we supposedly have to the authority of Scripture.
Quote
Yes, it is the authority of "scripture and right reason" that began with Luther. Our "right reason" has concluded things from scriptures that the wider Church has not adopted, e.g., marriage for priests, remarriages for divorced clergy, ordination of women, and ordination of PALMS.
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

Marshall Hahn


Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3256 on: October 05, 2010, 05:04:26 PM »
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

We kinda did "right reason" with this. We recognized that people of sound reason in our church have come to at least four different interpretations of the biblical texts. For good or ill, Luther placed the locus of biblical interpretation into the hands/minds/reasoning ability of the individual and took it away from the Church.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3257 on: October 05, 2010, 05:23:45 PM »
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

We kinda did "right reason" with this. We recognized that people of sound reason in our church have come to at least four different interpretations of the biblical texts. For good or ill, Luther placed the locus of biblical interpretation into the hands/minds/reasoning ability of the individual and took it away from the Church.

As we've discussed here many, many times, "our church" did not come to even one "interpretation[] of the biblical texts" regarding sexuality.

If you disagree, I urge you to prove me wrong by citing the discussion in HSGT (or in the other sexuality resolutions) of any Scriptural support for any particular position on same-sex sexual relationships.

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3258 on: October 05, 2010, 05:28:03 PM »
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

We kinda did "right reason" with this. We recognized that people of sound reason in our church have come to at least four different interpretations of the biblical texts. For good or ill, Luther placed the locus of biblical interpretation into the hands/minds/reasoning ability of the individual and took it away from the Church.

Of course, that is not what you said this morning when you wrote: "Our "right reason" has concluded things from scriptures ..., e.g., ...  ordination of PALMS."  And what you say above is quite different.

We concluded nothing from Scripture - using "right reason" or anything else.  There are no conclusions drawn based on Scripture using right reason.  There are four opinions reported, and accepted as valid, without any examination of the relative support from Scripture for any of them.

Such a process for deciding such an important question in the church (and yes, how we order our lives as sexual beings and how we order the ministry of the church are important questions) has no precedent in the Confessions or in Luther.

Marshall Hahn

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3259 on: October 05, 2010, 06:21:36 PM »
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

We kinda did "right reason" with this. We recognized that people of sound reason in our church have come to at least four different interpretations of the biblical texts. For good or ill, Luther placed the locus of biblical interpretation into the hands/minds/reasoning ability of the individual and took it away from the Church.

Of course, that is not what you said this morning when you wrote: "Our "right reason" has concluded things from scriptures ..., e.g., ...  ordination of PALMS."  And what you say above is quite different.

We concluded nothing from Scripture - using "right reason" or anything else.  There are no conclusions drawn based on Scripture using right reason.  There are four opinions reported, and accepted as valid, without any examination of the relative support from Scripture for any of them.

Such a process for deciding such an important question in the church (and yes, how we order our lives as sexual beings and how we order the ministry of the church are important questions) has no precedent in the Confessions or in Luther.

True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures. Others have their conclusions which may agree with you or me or someone else. As I stated earlier, Luther took the interpretive norm away from the Church and gave it to individuals, first of all, when he opposed the Church's interpretation with his own "right reason" based on his understanding of scriptures; and secondly, when he placed the Bible into the hands of the pew-sitters in their own language, believing that they would be led by the Spirit to properly interpret the scriptures.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3260 on: October 05, 2010, 06:27:30 PM »
As we've discussed here many, many times, "our church" did not come to even one "interpretation[] of the biblical texts" regarding sexuality.

I agree.

Quote
If you disagree, I urge you to prove me wrong by citing the discussion in HSGT (or in the other sexuality resolutions) of any Scriptural support for any particular position on same-sex sexual relationships.

We recognize that people of good faith in our church have studied scriptures and with their "right reason" have come to different convictions about this issue. We have not given our church the power or authority to dictate what the members are to believe. We've stated that with our social statements. While they give what we as a church body and our agencies are to teach, no members are required to agree with them, e.g., on abortion, on the death penalty, education, the environment, etc.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3261 on: October 05, 2010, 07:25:30 PM »
So I will add in my usual...

Yes but which one of these will have an approved service in the next Augsburg Fortress printed ELCA approved liturgy 

Our "approved" liturgies are in ELW (sort of -- see later comments). (One could also say that about LBW and SBH, but not WOV or This Far By Faith, or Worship and Praise.) Just because Augsburg Fortress Publishes a liturgy doesn't mean that it's been approved by the ELCA. ELW Pastoral Care Book and ELW Occasional Services for the Assembly are "commended by the Church Council of the ELCA for use in this church." Similar language is on the copyright page of ELW: "Evangelical Lutheran Worship is commended for use in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America." However, it also has: "Evangelical Lutheran Worship is approved for use in the Evangleical Lutheran Church in Canada and is commended to this church as its primary worship resource." (boldface added).

It would seem that the ELCA really doesn't "approve" worship resources, but only "commends" them for use in our congregations. The commendations may come from a Churchwide Assembly as it does for ELW, or from the Church Council as it does for the supplemental liturgies.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pilgrim

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3262 on: October 05, 2010, 08:02:18 PM »
True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures.

Tim Christ writes: In May of 2009 I commented: The leisured wealth of the western world has succeeded primarily, it would seem to me, in throwing narcissitic gasoline on an already ego-centristic individualism run amok. Brians "individualistic" exegetical posture simply affirms same and I continue to stand by that observation.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3263 on: October 05, 2010, 08:13:00 PM »
True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures.

Tim Christ writes: In May of 2009 I commented: The leisured wealth of the western world has succeeded primarily, it would seem to me, in throwing narcissitic gasoline on an already ego-centristic individualism run amok. Brians "individualistic" exegetical posture simply affirms same and I continue to stand by that observation.

And I argue that the "individualistic" exegetical posture comes from Luther. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but Luther placed his own interpretation of scripture and tradition against the teaching of the Church in his day, he set in motion the individualism that we have today. The fact that the ELCA was unwilling to establish a ministerium or to give the Conference of Bishops any power and authority continues the practice of giving individuals power and authority.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dadoo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3264 on: October 05, 2010, 08:58:33 PM »
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

We kinda did "right reason" with this. We recognized that people of sound reason in our church have come to at least four different interpretations of the biblical texts. For good or ill, Luther placed the locus of biblical interpretation into the hands/minds/reasoning ability of the individual and took it away from the Church.

Of course, that is not what you said this morning when you wrote: "Our "right reason" has concluded things from scriptures ..., e.g., ...  ordination of PALMS."  And what you say above is quite different.

We concluded nothing from Scripture - using "right reason" or anything else.  There are no conclusions drawn based on Scripture using right reason.  There are four opinions reported, and accepted as valid, without any examination of the relative support from Scripture for any of them.

Such a process for deciding such an important question in the church (and yes, how we order our lives as sexual beings and how we order the ministry of the church are important questions) has no precedent in the Confessions or in Luther.

True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures. Others have their conclusions which may agree with you or me or someone else. As I stated earlier, Luther took the interpretive norm away from the Church and gave it to individuals, first of all, when he opposed the Church's interpretation with his own "right reason" based on his understanding of scriptures; and secondly, when he placed the Bible into the hands of the pew-sitters in their own language, believing that they would be led by the Spirit to properly interpret the scriptures.

 . . . you forgot to mention that, after the pew sitters did exactly that - interpret the scripture on their own - he proceeded to suggest to the Lords of the realm that the pew sitters where all wet in their interpretation and that the insurrection they had started, based on that interpretation, could most certainly be put down by force with the power of the word of God behind the princes since the peasants' interpretation was clearly of the devil.

Oh, I forgot: then, to end the matter, he abandoned the entire "priesthood of all believers" talk at some time around 1528. It took Spener to resurrect it years later.


Oh! Oh!: and he is said to have been in constant contact with Melanchton in July 1530 about that Confession of theirs, you know the one that Lutheran believe is the true exposition of scripture.


Oh! Oh! Oh! And then there are all those arguments he had with Emser and Erasmus and alike, you know, the ones where he explains to them that their interpretation of scripture was wrong and his was right and that they had no right to call themselves doctors and that no one should listen to them.


Oh! Oh! etc And he wrote that Large Catechism that was to tell pastors how they better bloody well teach the faith.


Oh ! etc,etc And he compared all that he wrote to the writings of the saints that had gone before him an showed that his interpretations were in continuity with the church and that the interpretation of Rome was the individual dream of some pope or bishop passing for interpretation or faithful doctrine.


If Luther ever met you Brian, he would tell you plainly: You can agree with me or you can be wrong. Up to you but if you do, don't teach in my church. Ask Karlstadt about that sometime.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3265 on: October 06, 2010, 12:15:35 PM »
Again, our "right reason" did no such thing with respect to the ordination of PALMS.  We have NO conclusion from Scripture concerning this question.  We have four opinions - all of which are considered valid WITHOUT ANY EXAMINATION OF THEIR RELATIVE WORTH.

We kinda did "right reason" with this. We recognized that people of sound reason in our church have come to at least four different interpretations of the biblical texts. For good or ill, Luther placed the locus of biblical interpretation into the hands/minds/reasoning ability of the individual and took it away from the Church.

Of course, that is not what you said this morning when you wrote: "Our "right reason" has concluded things from scriptures ..., e.g., ...  ordination of PALMS."  And what you say above is quite different.

We concluded nothing from Scripture - using "right reason" or anything else.  There are no conclusions drawn based on Scripture using right reason.  There are four opinions reported, and accepted as valid, without any examination of the relative support from Scripture for any of them.

Such a process for deciding such an important question in the church (and yes, how we order our lives as sexual beings and how we order the ministry of the church are important questions) has no precedent in the Confessions or in Luther.

True, we as a corporate body did not conclude anything from scriptures. I have my conclusions from scriptures. You have your conclusions from scriptures. Others have their conclusions which may agree with you or me or someone else. As I stated earlier, Luther took the interpretive norm away from the Church and gave it to individuals, first of all, when he opposed the Church's interpretation with his own "right reason" based on his understanding of scriptures; and secondly, when he placed the Bible into the hands of the pew-sitters in their own language, believing that they would be led by the Spirit to properly interpret the scriptures.

 . . . you forgot to mention that, after the pew sitters did exactly that - interpret the scripture on their own - he proceeded to suggest to the Lords of the realm that the pew sitters where all wet in their interpretation and that the insurrection they had started, based on that interpretation, could most certainly be put down by force with the power of the word of God behind the princes since the peasants' interpretation was clearly of the devil.

Oh, I forgot: then, to end the matter, he abandoned the entire "priesthood of all believers" talk at some time around 1528. It took Spener to resurrect it years later.


Oh! Oh!: and he is said to have been in constant contact with Melanchton in July 1530 about that Confession of theirs, you know the one that Lutheran believe is the true exposition of scripture.


Oh! Oh! Oh! And then there are all those arguments he had with Emser and Erasmus and alike, you know, the ones where he explains to them that their interpretation of scripture was wrong and his was right and that they had no right to call themselves doctors and that no one should listen to them.


Oh! Oh! etc And he wrote that Large Catechism that was to tell pastors how they better bloody well teach the faith.


Oh ! etc,etc And he compared all that he wrote to the writings of the saints that had gone before him an showed that his interpretations were in continuity with the church and that the interpretation of Rome was the individual dream of some pope or bishop passing for interpretation or faithful doctrine.


If Luther ever met you Brian, he would tell you plainly: You can agree with me or you can be wrong. Up to you but if you do, don't teach in my church. Ask Karlstadt about that sometime.

Yup, Luther did all that. Kinda of like him (an individual) against the world -- do it his way or leave; understand the Fathers his way or you're wrong -- every one is free to come to their own interpretation -- as long as it agrees with his.

Why is it that the ELCA's bishops have little to no power -- even as a collective group, they only "advise" the church?

Luther came to see that his emphasis on the individuals didn't work too well. We are still learning that. But, on the other hand, there are pastors in our church who wouldn't trust the conference of bishops to make the right decisions either -- and some certainly don't believe that our presiding bishop is walking in the right way.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Bergs

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3266 on: October 06, 2010, 01:12:24 PM »
Article referenced below on Christ Lutheran in Maple Plain, MN.

http://www.pressnews.com/articles/2010/10/03/independence/3christlutheranleaveselca.txt

Any number of interesting items in the article.

Often my focus is on how the pastors are reporting things out.  At first I thought the pastor of Lyndale Lutheran Church was getting it when she said:

Quote
The Rev. Gale Reitan of Lyndale Lutheran Church in Maple Plain also said that the change "created no conflict" among her congregation members and that there has been no suggestion that the church should leave the ELCA based on the change.

Reitan agreed with Garwick that the controversy is not about sexuality, but that it is based on how people read and interpret scripture. That, however, seems to be the extent of the agreement between the two reverends about this issue.

But then she misspoke.

Quote
"This is a defining moment for our congregations," Reitan said. "Lyndale Lutheran Church welcomes all people and the churches that are choosing to leave the ELCA do not welcome all people."
Sorry Rev. Reitan, GLBT folks told me straight up they felt welcomed by me and the congregation I belonged to 15 years before the ELCA made the changes last summer.  As one who chose to leave the ELCA, I have not changed my welcome.  This is a snarky shot to leveled at those leaving the ELCA. 

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

Bergs

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3267 on: October 06, 2010, 01:21:37 PM »
This is a long article from the Rapid City, SD, area.  There is a lot of strife being caused by the changes in August 2009.  Please keep congregations in turmoil in your prayers.

"Lutheran split divides church families"
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/article_c40969de-cf52-11df-b4ab-001cc4c002e0.html

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

Ken Kimball

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3268 on: October 06, 2010, 01:35:27 PM »
One mis-statement in the Rapid City report: with 200 congregations by the end of 2011, the NALC will not be the 4th largest Lutheran Church in the world.  In the U.S. won't that still put us behind ELCA, LCMS, LCMC, and WELS?   How many congregations are in WELS and ELS? 

Ken

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3269 on: October 06, 2010, 02:36:56 PM »
One mis-statement in the Rapid City report: with 200 congregations by the end of 2011, the NALC will not be the 4th largest Lutheran Church in the world.  In the U.S. won't that still put us behind ELCA, LCMS, LCMC, and WELS?   How many congregations are in WELS and ELS? 

Ken

The relative sizes of Lutheran denominations can be difficult to accurately count. Do you go by the number of congregations, the number of baptized members, the number of confirmed members, or the number of people who usually show up on Sunday?

For example, take Christ Lutheran in Maples Plain, MN. According to the ELCA's website, they have 645 Baptized Members, 549 Confirmed Members, and an average attendance of 185 people. That's fairly typical of ELCA congregations. So when comparing denomination sizes, do they count as 1 congregation, 185 worshippers per Sunday, 549 Confirmed Members, or 645 Baptized Members?

From aonther perspective, which denomination is bigger? One that has hundreds of congregations with fewer than 75 members worshipping each Sunday that totals 1,000,000 total worshippers, or one that requires small congregations to merge to maintain a limited number of congregations that have more like 500 or more worshippers each Sunday that totals 2,000,000 worshippers each Sunday?

I'm not arguing, I'm only attempting to illustrate the difficulty of comparative measurements of denominations.