Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 841679 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2880 on: September 08, 2010, 09:57:28 AM »
Peter writes:
The point of the question was merely to illustrate the difference in approach and why what you are taking as personal and mean is really something purely theological.
I comment:
Again, you separate the "purely theological" from the personal and real. How do you do that? I find it chilling.

Peter writes:
And the theological judgment many have made, inside and outside the ELCA, is that many people are hurting from the ELCA's actions, and that they are being misled and burdened by the idea of "bound conscience" as taught in the ELCA, and thus, for them, the remedy is not to send them back to have their conscience bound to something false.
I comment:
So, and I ask this directly; since you believe the ELCA is asking people to "have their conscience bound to something false," it is all right for Pastor Awtry, you, or anyone else to work to get them out of that "something false" and into your own church bodies? You gonna go after Pastor Tibbetts and Pastor Wolf, too? Or denounce them for staying in? Or are there exceptions for certain people?

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2881 on: September 08, 2010, 10:00:34 AM »
Pastor Hughes writes:
over the years it's also been made clear Charles is incapable of debating theology.

And I comment:
And over the years it's also been made clear that Pastor Hughes only jumps into a discussion to a) pontificate on how all this could have been avoided if people listened to him years ago, or b) take pot shots at individuals here, or c) regale us with his latest macho hobby.

Maryland Brian

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2882 on: September 08, 2010, 10:35:52 AM »

And I comment:
And over the years it's also been made clear that Pastor Hughes only jumps into a discussion to a) pontificate on how all this could have been avoided if people listened to him years ago, or b) take pot shots at individuals here, or c) regale us with his latest macho hobby.

 Charles,

  Again you slander without basis. Numerous times in the past I have attempted to engage you in actual theological discussion and on EVERY OCCASION it devolved into this sort of personal silliness.  Perhaps it would be helpful if you took another 30 day vacation from this site.

peter_speckhard

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2883 on: September 08, 2010, 12:49:16 PM »
Peter writes:
The point of the question was merely to illustrate the difference in approach and why what you are taking as personal and mean is really something purely theological.
I comment:
Again, you separate the "purely theological" from the personal and real. How do you do that? I find it chilling.

Peter writes:
And the theological judgment many have made, inside and outside the ELCA, is that many people are hurting from the ELCA's actions, and that they are being misled and burdened by the idea of "bound conscience" as taught in the ELCA, and thus, for them, the remedy is not to send them back to have their conscience bound to something false.
I comment:
So, and I ask this directly; since you believe the ELCA is asking people to "have their conscience bound to something false," it is all right for Pastor Awtry, you, or anyone else to work to get them out of that "something false" and into your own church bodies? You gonna go after Pastor Tibbetts and Pastor Wolf, too? Or denounce them for staying in? Or are there exceptions for certain people?
I would have no trouble telling Steven or Erma, both of whom enjoy my respect (well, maybe they don't enjoy it, but they have it regardless) that I think they would be wise to leave the ELCA. That is what I think. They disagree, but not from lack of discussion and consideration of alternatives. At some point, I think, Erma left the LCMS. Mere diligence would suggest she had theological conversations about her concerns with the LCMS with people inside and outside the LCMS before making a clean break. Whether we're talking about Steven, Erma, George, or anyone else, it is their decision. I do not "denounce" them for standing on the convictions and staying in the ELCA even though I don't think it is the right thing to do. I could not "grab" "lure" or "steal" them away from the ELCA, but I could and would discuss the pros and cons of staying or leaving and the differences between the Lutheran bodies and what I appreciate about the LCMS. What Clyde is doing seems similar to me. These aren't fourth graders being offered a better dessert at a different lunch table. These are serious adults with serious theological concerns and they deserve to have their concerns addressed with as much care and knowledge as possible.   

TravisW

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2884 on: September 08, 2010, 01:43:36 PM »
Hawley Lutheran in Hawley MN is taking its first vote on Sept 19.  It's technically its second first vote, since they took a vote in May which received 58% in favor of leaving the ELCA.

More here:  http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/290327/publisher_ID/1/

Tom Senge

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2885 on: September 08, 2010, 03:18:50 PM »
Hawley Lutheran in Hawley MN is taking its first vote on Sept 19.  It's technically its second first vote, since they took a vote in May which received 58% in favor of leaving the ELCA.

More here:  http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/290327/publisher_ID/1/

Travis,
How DARE you try to pull this thread back in line!!!  Seriously though, this thread has gotten just awful (once again), rising to the level of maybe 2nd grade.  How about starting a thread called "People who like to ***** (you fill in the word) all over eachother at every chance possible."

This forum deserves better....it's pretty disgusting right now.

Tom

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2886 on: September 08, 2010, 03:37:21 PM »
....
Some people, (.. Pastor Awtrey,[sic] possibly; ... ) have made a "theological judgment". You believe the ELCA is no longer a "valid" denomination, so it is o.k. to grab ELCA members and lead them to somewhere the "true faith" can be found.
Tell me if I'm wrong about that.

Or, if that is not your position; on what grounds do you justify luring ELCA members into other denominations or associations?
....

Ok Charles, first I was pleased to see you put "possibly" because I was starting to see a huge disconnect in our conversation, and what I read to be your assumptions. Those assumptions, if there, are very wrong.

The ministries I speak of have in some cases been going on for 12 or more years. We work with other Pastors and congregations in those ministries. We have done so long before the current issues, even before WA and LCMC were formed. We had frameworks to do so, focus on the purposes of those ministries, apart from disagreements. I DON'T SHEEP SHUFFLE! not even in the congregational setting. In my current Interim congregation, we have about 5 folks that came over from ELCA recently. That was because, ELCA closed down their congregation, locked the doors, and they HAD NO PASTOR for me to contact. ,They did not know nor consider the bishop their pastor, and it seems that was ok with the bishop. That was where the bishop left them. Now over the years, I have seen the same thing in LCMS, so it is not just ELCA bishops. But the LCMS DP did encourage us to reach out to those within the framework of the LCMS congregation Church without Walls, and we shepherded them as able to a pastor, and they had a pastor the day they closed the congregation, with two cell phone numbers to call.

Because I am a missionary at large, I am well practiced at engaging folks and well aware of boundaries that demand, "you should speak to your pastor about this," responses. Because of this I have excellent relationships for example with ELCA pastors. Your accusations apart from being slanderous, are simply totally disconnected from reality.

What kind of ministries? Well as one example, once a month we meet at an ELCA church, that is most likely going to stay in ELCA, and is seemingly pleased with decisions. We meet with paroles and those who have been recently released to provide accountability and support in their lives. We pray, counsel, and sing praises and hymns together. You don't have to worry about those sheep getting "stolen," since they aren't always even sheep, but goats. That is where we spend our time, among goats and lost sheep. They don't go to your church yet, so lighten up, the most that might happen is they may walk in your doors some day, and seek a home with you. Assuming you accept lost sheep and wounded goats.

My desire is for ELCA to return to being faithful. I have far too many friends and family there across the country to even consider trying to rescue them. The AALC regularly tells congregations who contact them, "You are too conflicted, you need to work with your pastor and deal with that, and we will still be here if that's what happens." And then we decline a visit for the time, and pray for them. We have not gathered 500 congregations, I'm not sure we could. We have heard from many, many pastors and congregations. Some of them went LCMC, because in conversation with the pastor, we felt "You need to talk with LCMC or CORE/ELCA and your bishop, that's not who we are."

But you know what, whether the lost single woman coming in from the rain, crying, " they closed my church!" or the congregation that votes 98% to "go home," we don't send them away. It's as simple as that. We say come sit with the other lost sheep and this obnoxious goat over here, let's talk and pray. Now sadly because in this we have developed the trust and friendship of ELCA pastors, it gets a little sticky. BUT we didn't stir the pot. ELCA did. We're just trying to be there Friday night, for woman who just got left outside the prison with a few bucks in her pocket and nowhere to go.

The problem I have is that - it IS my practice to take such things to the pastor who was called to their care as best I can. What that does is establish relationships in the field with them that grow. If they call me, it is because of that, and not a conspiracy to raid your hen house. Your accusation remains an insult, disconnected from the real world in the ELCA church basement with paroles and a couple pastors and deaconesses, actually doing mission!

TV
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 04:28:20 PM by TVerinus »
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2887 on: September 08, 2010, 04:53:19 PM »

So, and I ask this directly; since you believe the ELCA is asking people to "have their conscience bound to something false," it is all right for Pastor Awtrey,[sic] you, or anyone else to work to get them out of that "something false" and into your own church bodies?

I always try to answer directly, questions put "directly!"

Having answered your charge let me be clear on my confession. It has not changed, since I heard it from my parents and grandmother in my first ten years in the ULCA, as they learned from their fathers and mothers since before the Reformation. It did not change when I left LCA for the ALC in 1975. It did not change when I left ALC for LCMS in 1985. It has not changed since I moved over from LCMS to The AALC.

What I have always done, and do today, is proclaim the Gospel as clearly and as purely as it has been given me to do. If I see error, I point to scripture. If it becomes unbearable in the place I am, I seek a place where the doctrine I heard at my baptism only weeks old, as a three year old, and ever since, is still proclaimed faithfully.

In that, I engage far worse than heterodox or apostate Lutherans. We work in the midst of Wiccan Priests and Priestesses. That's a little more challenging. As God has shown me over and over and over, His Word, His Truth, has the only power there is. I trust that!

I proclaim. I have never converted one soul to any truth. I plant. I water. God grows. Sometimes he lets me be there when He Baptizes. Sometimes he lets me be there when He gives fellowship and His body and blood. I just seek to be faithful - and thankful, if I'm allowed to be there.

GOD WORKS to " to get them out of that something false," as He wills it. I have never sought any thing else.

TV
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 04:59:09 PM by TVerinus »
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Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2888 on: September 08, 2010, 05:15:07 PM »
Pastor Awtry writes:
What I have always done, and do today, is proclaim the Gospel as clearly and as purely as it has been given me to do. If I see error, I point to scripture. If it becomes unbearable in the place I am, I seek a place where the doctrine I heard at my baptism only weeks old, as a three year old, and ever since, is still proclaimed faithfully.

I comment:
O.k.
So you no longer found that place (where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully) in the LCA, and left for the ALC in 1975. Then the ALC was no longer that "place" (where the gospel is proclaied faithfully)  and you left for the LC-MS in 1985. Then the LC-MS was no longer that "place" (where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully) and you left - a year or so ago, I think, because life in the LC-MS must have become "unbearable"  - for the AALC.
It's your journey, of course, but sounds like a movie-star's marriage track to me.

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2889 on: September 08, 2010, 05:54:39 PM »

O.k.
So you no longer found that place (where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully) in the LCA, and left for the ALC in 1975. Then the ALC was no longer that "place" (where the gospel is proclaied faithfully)  and you left for the LC-MS in 1985. Then the LC-MS was no longer that "place" (where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully) and you left - a year or so ago, I think, because life in the LC-MS must have become "unbearable"  - for the AALC.
It's your journey, of course, but sounds like a movie-star's marriage track to me.

I'm not sure that simply being affiliated with the church to which his parents took him for baptism gives a person license to be smug ("God I thank you that I'm not a church hopper like that guy over there") but then your smugness has never required a license, has it?

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2890 on: September 08, 2010, 05:56:29 PM »
No smugness at all, Mr. Gelhausen. I said that it is his journey. May very well be a valid journey. Good friend of mine is just ending her fourth marriage. It's her journey.

TravisW

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2891 on: September 08, 2010, 05:57:43 PM »
Is there still anybody in the LCA? 

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2892 on: September 08, 2010, 06:01:05 PM »
No smugness at all, Mr. Gelhausen. I said that it is his journey. May very well be a valid journey. Good friend of mine is just ending her fourth marriage. It's her journey.

No smugness.  Right.  We don't need a poll to determine the truth of that.

And what on earth is a "valid journey?"  You been taking rhetoric lessons from Bishop Barbie?

Valid journey?

Mike (not Gelhausen now or earlier) Bennett

Valid journey?
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2893 on: September 08, 2010, 06:07:38 PM »

3. If you wish, I will introduce you to the ELCA synodical president on your territory,


No (further) comment.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2894 on: September 09, 2010, 12:19:22 AM »

I comment:
O.k.
So you no longer found that place (where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully) in the LCA, and left for the ALC in 1975. Then the ALC was no longer that "place" (where the gospel is proclaied faithfully)  and you left for the LC-MS in 1985. Then the LC-MS was no longer that "place" (where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully) and you left - a year or so ago, I think, because life in the LC-MS must have become "unbearable"  - for the AALC.
It's your journey, of course, but sounds like a movie-star's marriage track to me.

I shouldn't reply but you seem to ask, and while I might take it as rhetorical, I try to answer questions asked.

First it should be noted out that The AALC is in full fellowship with the LCMS, and I departed with the blessings and continuing Christian love of the DP. It is not true and you should know it when you say I have ever said, "Then the LC-MS was no longer that place ..where the gospel is proclaimed faithfully." The DP and I sat together as brothers. We talked. Our fellowship relationship did not change and we agreed that the move was good and salutary. My fellowship and community with those in LCMS has not changed in the way you posture and impute, seemingly maliciously to try and make your point, whatever it is.

That is indicative to the other changes as well. Community with those in Lexington and Newberry, South Carolina Synod has not changed, and perhaps naively, I simply wonder if they know what the world of LCA/ELCA was/is outside the arms of the Saluda and Broad rivers. I take some comfort at the thoughts of Bishop Crumley as he sits in the embrace of those two rivers. That is true with many in the ELCA churches around the country. Perhaps you see yourself as a worldly traveller. Well, Charles, I have only travelled as far east as Iran, and as far west as Somalia, in Europe and in Asia, Latin America, and below the equator into the Indian Ocean. I guess I just don't know the world like you do. When I go places, I seek faithful churches. I found it in Northern California in 1975 in the ALC and not so much the new things of the LCA churches in that place. I found it in the mountains of Colorado in the LCMS, when the New (and strange,) Lutheran Church was being created by those of the ALC.

Walther speaks well when he says, "Although God gathers for himself a holy church ... also where His Word is not taught in its purity, every believer must ... adhere to orthodox congregations and ... pastors where ever such may be found." .That's my journey, rooted in the same thing I learned on my grandmother's knee in her SC Synod church. Your answer continues to ignore and distort this crucial point. You have constructed a straw man that doesn't exist. I still can go home to my grandmother's church, I would be willing to bet I could visit Richard's church where I first joined the ALC, and from what I've seen here, I'd find the Gospel I have always known. I still join and commune with those in the LCMS church where I was welcomed 25 years ago.

No the ugly reality is that this can not be said about the man made ABCDEF organizations, especially as they create "new things," of their own imagining. That too is a part of my journey. You are the one who calls the Offices at HQ with humteen levels of church,  a Church, not me. The Church is where the Gospel is preached faithfully, and the sacraments administered rightly. That happens in the congregation. Whether it be from kinsmen pastors in SC, Pastor Johnson in California, an LCMS church a mile from my house, or among the congregations of the AALC. Where that is not found .... not so much. I fellowship with those in AALC/LCMS because the covenants there, promise me that I might find the confession I know, unchanged in 60 years. Sadly as I travelled from Georgia to California, from points east to Colorado, I found the LCA ALC ELCA sign outside did not always deliver what was in those covenants, as new things unfolded.

I can only wonder why you are not understanding this simple message. It is not hard. Perhaps others can explain. I don't marry the ABC sign outside a building. That is not a church. I make covenants of confession and seek to be faithful to the covenants I make. Where I find that covenant is not present, I go where that covenant is still present. It is a simple fact that the organization ELCA, left her covenant with her people. So be it. That happens. We as God's children are simply called to seek. to go to the faithful congregations and pastors, which is Church, where the teaching, the Word and Sacraments remain faithful. You are the one married to ABCXYZ man made structures. I am a part of the faithful bride that clings to her confession and Groom, wherever that is found. I am not the one going about whoring with the world and its new philosophies.

TV
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 02:05:05 AM by TVerinus »
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