Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 980150 times)

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2520 on: August 11, 2010, 06:17:30 PM »
and after that (sour grapes warning) it did not mean leaving behind your pension but leaving behind any interest rate on your pension beyond 1 % or less which for some strange reason seems is about the same as not getting it.   but I have said this before and since we all repeat ourselves endless in these parts, so what.   Harvey Mozolak
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SmithL

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What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2521 on: August 11, 2010, 06:59:07 PM »
Virtually everything I've learned about Seminex has been a result of discussions on this board during the past couple of months, so please excuse me (and educate me) if I get some of this wrong.  As I understand it, formation of the AELC was a direct result of Seminex.  About 250 congregations left the LCMS in support of Seminex, but that was far fewer than AELC's founders had expected. Seminex had more graduates than could be supported by AELC, so Seminex closed and AELC became part of the ELCA.

So that got me thinking, where are the new pastors for NALC and LCMC going to come from?

So far, the ELCA has acknowledged 348 congregations leaving, but those could be split between LCMC, NALC, and other Lutheran bodies.  I know that there have been new congregations started, but it's kind of difficult to get an accurate number.  We know that 250 congregations won't support a seminary, but how many will it take?  Will NALC and LCMC even need their own seminaries, or can they continue to use the ELCA's?

What do y'all think?

Revbert

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2522 on: August 11, 2010, 07:11:40 PM »
Virtually everything I've learned about Seminex has been a result of discussions on this board during the past couple of months, so please excuse me (and educate me) if I get some of this wrong.  As I understand it, formation of the AELC was a direct result of Seminex.  About 250 congregations left the LCMS in support of Seminex, but that was far fewer than AELC's founders had expected. Seminex had more graduates than could be supported by AELC, so Seminex closed and AELC became part of the ELCA.

So that got me thinking, where are the new pastors for NALC and LCMC going to come from?

So far, the ELCA has acknowledged 348 congregations leaving, but those could be split between LCMC, NALC, and other Lutheran bodies.  I know that there have been new congregations started, but it's kind of difficult to get an accurate number.  We know that 250 congregations won't support a seminary, but how many will it take?  Will NALC and LCMC even need their own seminaries, or can they continue to use the ELCA's?

What do y'all think?

Well, as one of those in a church body without our own seminary, I'll say the model we have adopted to date is colloquy/mentoring of candidates. We are exploring a house of studies model as well.

pbnorth3

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2523 on: August 11, 2010, 07:13:40 PM »
Virtually everything I've learned about Seminex has been a result of discussions on this board during the past couple of months, so please excuse me (and educate me) if I get some of this wrong.  As I understand it, formation of the AELC was a direct result of Seminex.  About 250 congregations left the LCMS in support of Seminex, but that was far fewer than AELC's founders had expected. Seminex had more graduates than could be supported by AELC, so Seminex closed and AELC became part of the ELCA.

So that got me thinking, where are the new pastors for NALC and LCMC going to come from?

So far, the ELCA has acknowledged 348 congregations leaving, but those could be split between LCMC, NALC, and other Lutheran bodies.  I know that there have been new congregations started, but it's kind of difficult to get an accurate number.  We know that 250 congregations won't support a seminary, but how many will it take?  Will NALC and LCMC even need their own seminaries, or can they continue to use the ELCA's?

What do y'all think?

Actually 250 congregations could support a seminary. The AFLC has a superb seminary and it is an association of something a little less than 300 congregations right now, as well as sister churches in Africa, Asia, South America, and Canada. That seminary works for them alll. So it can be done. NALC and LCMC could create their own seminaries. On the other hand, LCMS, AFLC, and WELS have excellent places of pastoral formation and they (well at least the LCMS and AFLC) have been open to being utilized by other Lutheran bodies. For example the AFLC Summer Institute of Theology included ELS, LCMC,and AFLC pastors and lay leaders. The AFLC also trains pastors who belong to one of the diocese of Tanzania (which is episcopal in structure). So there really isn't a mad rush to go out and form another seminary. Orthodox Lutheran Seminaries are available.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Scott6

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2524 on: August 11, 2010, 07:18:52 PM »
On the other hand, LCMS, AFLC, and WELS have excellent places of pastoral formation and they (well at least the LCMS and AFLC) have been open to being utilized by other Lutheran bodies...  Orthodox Lutheran Seminaries are available.

Quite true.  Do realize that, unless something has changed most recently, it would be the graduate division via the MA (or PhD) that would be open to folks of denominations that are not in fellowship with the LCMS, not the MDiv.

pbnorth3

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2525 on: August 11, 2010, 07:22:20 PM »
On the other hand, LCMS, AFLC, and WELS have excellent places of pastoral formation and they (well at least the LCMS and AFLC) have been open to being utilized by other Lutheran bodies...  Orthodox Lutheran Seminaries are available.

Quite true.  Do realize that, unless something has changed most recently, it would be the graduate division via the MA (or PhD) that would be open to folks of denominations that are not in fellowship with the LCMS, not the MDiv.

Yes, but that should pose no problem. One would expect that if someone from LCMC, for example, came to the LCMS seminary in St. Louis, they would get the MA, but their coordinating committee anad colloquey committee would accept this as in fact an M.Div equivalent. The training would be there, the internship would have to be worked out through their own associations.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2526 on: August 11, 2010, 07:58:25 PM »
On the other hand, LCMS, AFLC, and WELS have excellent places of pastoral formation and they (well at least the LCMS and AFLC) have been open to being utilized by other Lutheran bodies...  Orthodox Lutheran Seminaries are available.

Quite true.  Do realize that, unless something has changed most recently, it would be the graduate division via the MA (or PhD) that would be open to folks of denominations that are not in fellowship with the LCMS, not the MDiv.

Yes, but that should pose no problem. One would expect that if someone from LCMC, for example, came to the LCMS seminary in St. Louis, they would get the MA, but their coordinating committee anad colloquey committee would accept this as in fact an M.Div equivalent. The training would be there, the internship would have to be worked out through their own associations.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Critical Mass for a seminary on the mission field is usually about 10 students.  Now that means a professor may teach every course the students take, or may bring in a retired pastor for a month or two, or whatever they can get.  The students might have to work as well.  That is not a bad thing.

That doesn't get you the nice dining hall, or the pretty chapel, or the museum...err library. ( Give them LOGOS Silver with Luther Works, the Concordia Electronic Library and a few other things... they'll save a lot of $$0 Have 3-4 pastors of good teaching and mentoring skills and you can still do it.

As my deacons are known to adapt - the purpose of all ceremonies is to give people what they need to know about Christ.  The adaption here - the purpose of all seminaries is to prepare men to give the people God calls and marks/will mark as His what they need to know about Christ.

WIll it produce scholars in ivory towers?  Possibly, but that isn't its goal.  Its goal is to produce men ready for the pastorate, and ready to proclaim Christ that His people may reflect HIs glory to a world hid in darkness.

Evangel

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2527 on: August 11, 2010, 08:39:31 PM »
{Edit - moved to the "Seminary Education for New Lutheran Church Bodies" thread}
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 07:08:03 PM by Evangel »
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
Zion Lutheran Church, LCMC
Priddy, TX
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ACXXIII, "Your majesty will graciously take into account the fact that, in these last times of which the Scriptures prophesy, the world is growing worse and men are becoming weaker and more infirm."

krs1984

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2528 on: August 11, 2010, 09:19:57 PM »
Hey as a Logos Ambassador I agree there is no reason for an old fashioned brick library.... I carry my 1600 book library in my laptop...
Lots of good Lutheran things from Luther's Works and the Book of Concord to Theological Ethic of Pannenberg
Apostolic Fathers...Nicene Fathers.... Anchor Bible Commentaries, Hermeneia  multiple bible translations etc.
Upcoming is NT Wright's stuff and Father Ray Browns Death and Birth....Augsburg Commentaries and a whole lot of Fortress press books....
and Yes  Concordia and Wisconsin have joined into the electronic book movement.

In fact I am selling my 'hardbook' library on Amazon...Less to move around between calls and heck I still own the book.....

If anybody wants to know more email me....
I basically only buy 'electronic books'.....
Plenty of reading material is always on my laptop and my notes and sermons are searchable now.....


Quote

Critical Mass for a seminary on the mission field is usually about 10 students.  Now that means a professor may teach every course the students take, or may bring in a retired pastor for a month or two, or whatever they can get.  The students might have to work as well.  That is not a bad thing.

That doesn't get you the nice dining hall, or the pretty chapel, or the museum...err library. ( Give them LOGOS Silver with Luther Works, the Concordia Electronic Library and a few other things... they'll save a lot of $$0 Have 3-4 pastors of good teaching and mentoring skills and you can still do it.

As my deacons are known to adapt - the purpose of all ceremonies is to give people what they need to know about Christ.  The adaption here - the purpose of all seminaries is to prepare men to give the people God calls and marks/will mark as His what they need to know about Christ.

WIll it produce scholars in ivory towers?  Possibly, but that isn't its goal.  Its goal is to produce men ready for the pastorate, and ready to proclaim Christ that His people may reflect HIs glory to a world hid in darkness.

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2529 on: August 11, 2010, 09:33:10 PM »
On the other hand, LCMS, AFLC, and WELS have excellent places of pastoral formation and they (well at least the LCMS and AFLC) have been open to being utilized by other Lutheran bodies...  Orthodox Lutheran Seminaries are available.

Quite true.  Do realize that, unless something has changed most recently, it would be the graduate division via the MA (or PhD) that would be open to folks of denominations that are not in fellowship with the LCMS, not the MDiv.

The M.Div. is designed to form men to be pastors in the LCMS or its sister synods. The other programs (M.A., Ph.D., S.T.M.) are open to those not in fellowship, as is the D.Min.

At Fort Wayne, we have had a number of non-LCMS people study in these programs. Under unusual circumstances, we have admitted men to the M.Div. even before fellowship was formally declared (i.e. AALC).

Revbert

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2530 on: August 11, 2010, 09:34:52 PM »
Thread drift...................
 >:(


SmithL

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2531 on: August 11, 2010, 11:20:43 PM »
Thread drift...................
 >:(

Sorry, I thought this was the most appropriate thread for my question. 

I appreciate the enlightenment I've received.  Thanks, all.

Scotty8284

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Re: What is critical mass for a seminary?
« Reply #2532 on: August 12, 2010, 12:13:45 AM »
...So that got me thinking, where are the new pastors for NALC and LCMC going to come from?

So far, the ELCA has acknowledged 348 congregations leaving, but those could be split between LCMC, NALC, and other Lutheran bodies.  I know that there have been new congregations started, but it's kind of difficult to get an accurate number.  We know that 250 congregations won't support a seminary, but how many will it take?  Will NALC and LCMC even need their own seminaries, or can they continue to use the ELCA's?

What do y'all think?

FYI, NALC/Lutheran CORE has a working committee on seminary education, and preliminary plans have been discussed at their presentations.  We can start a new thread if interested.
Jim Scott
NALC Layman
Wittenberg '78

luthersterotypicus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2533 on: August 12, 2010, 07:21:39 AM »
Where are the 358 pastors needed now with more congregations forming to that growing number? Does LCMC have enough pastors now? How many of those are retired or approaching with less than 5-8 years of service to give?

And the seminaries needed are not yet even off the drawing board. You need trained seminary professors. They are even harder to grow.

Point well taken L Smith.

Dadoo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2534 on: August 12, 2010, 07:46:29 AM »
Where are the 358 pastors needed now with more congregations forming to that growing number? Does LCMC have enough pastors now? How many of those are retired or approaching with less than 5-8 years of service to give?

And the seminaries needed are not yet even off the drawing board. You need trained seminary professors. They are even harder to grow.

Point well taken L Smith.

Has LCMC decided that pastoral education will be as it was and had been in the denominations that the LCMC churches came from?
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams