Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 792145 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6270 on: April 04, 2011, 12:09:29 PM »
We have been "out" for over four years and what a joy it has become to go to church and be the church for the gifts of God and for each other (blessed to be a blessing) rather the imperatives of obligation.

What "imperatives of obligation"?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6271 on: April 04, 2011, 12:11:50 PM »
Sorry again, Lou, but this just reads "I thank God that I am not like...."


Lets put that quote into context - The Pharisee thanked God that he was not like other men -"Robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector."  He self-righteously believed that he had no sin to confess. In the context of the debate between the ELCA, and every other alphabet soup Lutheran denomination, on the issue of sexually active homosexual clergy - who is it exactly that is saying there is no sin to confess?  

Well, I can easily see it being like a divorcing couple when one puts all the blame on the other, e.g., s/he was unfaithful; without considering one's own role in the breakup.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6272 on: April 04, 2011, 12:21:06 PM »
I am not going to get into a back and forth with you, George.  With your nearly 7,000 posts that would prove to be a never ending situation.  I will only try one more time.  You seem to think that it's only a matter of switching congregations and human organizations with no big deal.  It's like companies break up or are bought up etc. 


When you stop mischaracterizing my responses so erroneously and inaccurately as above, then I'll let the matter drop. As long as my attempts to convince others that the changing denominational affiliation is not without some emotional pangs, but not so severe as to rise to the level of "tragedy" are misstated as meaning that they are "no big deal", then clearly you are not hearing what I am saying.

It might be sad that a congregation changes denominational affiliation. One might even call it a misfortune. It's a big deal, but to be a tragedy, it has to be far more than just a big deal. While individual reactions to any situation might range from a small sigh to a total breakdown, on the whole, looking at the big picture, seeing things objectively, there is no reason why a congregation voting to change affiliation should be automatically any more difficult than dealing with a well-liked pastor accepting a call to a bigger congregation. I was part of a church that fractured with a major portion of the charter members leaving because of controversy over a new pastor who was called to replace the mission developer. Some folks were devastated, some thought it no big deal. Those who were devastated were, frankly, over-reacting.

Yes, it's a "big deal". But it's not automatically a huge, colossal, gigantic, mega-deal that could be rightfully called a "tragedy" every time it happens.

And, as unfortunate as one isolated event involving foreign missions might be, that is an example of one specific situation, which I have never disputed might be higher than average in negative impact, but which doesn't prove that each and every congregational vote to change affiliation is always a tragedy.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6273 on: April 04, 2011, 12:30:19 PM »
Yes, it's a "big deal". But it's not automatically a huge, colossal, gigantic, mega-deal that could be rightfully called a "tragedy" every time it happens.

If a father and son stop talking to each other; or a mother and daughter stop speaking to each other is that "no big deal" or a "tragedy" in family relationships? (Oh, that's right, relationships don't count to you.) Such ostracizing of family members happened with people I know when they changed denominations.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6274 on: April 04, 2011, 01:20:05 PM »
For the most part I agree with you, Lou.  It is invigorating to be a part of emerging networks supporting local, national, and international mission efforts.  We indeed are looking to the future. 

I cannot completely, however, forget the fact that major institutions, such as educational ones developed over generations with huge endowments given by sacrificial giving of countless folk, are not directly serving our mission endeavors as they once did.  I realize we are in a new day of de-centralized communications which makes things like online learning both possible and affordable.  There are opportunities that come with the new day.  I simply think we also, however, are losing assets that could have continued to serve us.  Now we must let them go.  That is for me sad.

For me personally there remains a constellation of extended family deeply involved in the Church who cannot see why we have acted as we have.  That does take energy, because our bonds of love are strong and need to be nurtured.  We are not cults who now have a new family.  We treasure our families of origin.  We also treasure brothers and sisters in the faith who are working hard for the ELCA etc.

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6275 on: April 04, 2011, 02:10:07 PM »
Yes, it's a "big deal". But it's not automatically a huge, colossal, gigantic, mega-deal that could be rightfully called a "tragedy" every time it happens.

If a father and son stop talking to each other; or a mother and daughter stop speaking to each other is that "no big deal" or a "tragedy" in family relationships? (Oh, that's right, relationships don't count to you.) Such ostracizing of family members happened with people I know when they changed denominations.
The internal combustion engine essentially converts a controlled explosion of fuel in the engine’s cylinders into kinetic (motion) energy which propels a vehicle via the crankshaft, gearbox, drive shaft and axles.

For the controlled explosion to occur, three elements are required: fuel, oxygen and an ignition source. The carburetor controls the fuel and oxygen by drawing in air from the engine’s inlet manifold and combining it with a precise amount of gasoline. The carburetor then vaporizes the resulting mixture before it is drawn into the awaiting cylinder and subsequently detonated by the ignition system. Carburetors work on Bernoulli’s principle: The faster air moves, the lower its static pressure, and the higher its dynamic pressure.

James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6276 on: April 04, 2011, 02:30:33 PM »
I am not going to get into a back and forth with you, George.  With your nearly 7,000 posts that would prove to be a never ending situation.  I will only try one more time.  You seem to think that it's only a matter of switching congregations and human organizations with no big deal.  It's like companies break up or are bought up etc. 


When you stop mischaracterizing my responses so erroneously and inaccurately as above, then I'll let the matter drop. As long as my attempts to convince others that the changing denominational affiliation is not without some emotional pangs, but not so severe as to rise to the level of "tragedy" are misstated as meaning that they are "no big deal", then clearly you are not hearing what I am saying.

It might be sad that a congregation changes denominational affiliation. One might even call it a misfortune. It's a big deal, but to be a tragedy, it has to be far more than just a big deal. While individual reactions to any situation might range from a small sigh to a total breakdown, on the whole, looking at the big picture, seeing things objectively, there is no reason why a congregation voting to change affiliation should be automatically any more difficult than dealing with a well-liked pastor accepting a call to a bigger congregation. I was part of a church that fractured with a major portion of the charter members leaving because of controversy over a new pastor who was called to replace the mission developer. Some folks were devastated, some thought it no big deal. Those who were devastated were, frankly, over-reacting.

Yes, it's a "big deal". But it's not automatically a huge, colossal, gigantic, mega-deal that could be rightfully called a "tragedy" every time it happens.

And, as unfortunate as one isolated event involving foreign missions might be, that is an example of one specific situation, which I have never disputed might be higher than average in negative impact, but which doesn't prove that each and every congregational vote to change affiliation is always a tragedy.


George --

Have you noticed that the reaction here to your posts on this subject is more-or-less universal?  You might want to reflect on why that is so.  Until then, you likely will continue to stand alone, aggravating everyone else in the process.

Jim

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6277 on: April 04, 2011, 03:05:07 PM »

Get some perspective, people.

We have perspective, George.  It is different from yours. 

Christe eleison, Steven+
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Tom Senge

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6278 on: April 04, 2011, 03:36:45 PM »

Get some perspective, people.

We have perspective, George.  It is different from yours.  

Christe eleison, Steven+
Well, I have resisted the pull of the tractor beam long enough.  Yes, it is, in my mind , perspective.  Yet I get what George is saying, perhaps because that's the way I tend to look at things.  We left.  Was it troublesome?  To a degree, but it had to be done.  Did I lose some sleep, yes, but I lose sleep when my new grandson is sick too.  So, we soberly undertook all of the necessary steps to do so, and then it was done, so we moved on.  I suppose if someone has much angst, then it needs to be ministered to.

Sometimes I think we convince ourselves that we should be sad, or in this case see something as tragic.  Sometimes we try to convince others that they shouldn't view events in a certain way.  I remember in seminary while meeting with the psychologist, I told him that there are times when they cause more problems than they fix.  This was because he tried to convince me that my life had been harder than I thought.  OK, perhaps a little deflection on my part.

I guess I am pretty good at compartalizing.  For my part, I have seen tragedy....and for me and the folks at Christ Lutheran Church, this wasn't it.

For all of you who indeed suffer, I am sorry.  Keep in prayer, and know the power of healing in Christ Jesus.

Peace,
Tom

CSLewis2

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6279 on: April 04, 2011, 03:45:47 PM »

Get some perspective, people.

We have perspective, George.  It is different from yours.  

Christe eleison, Steven+
Well, I have resisted the pull of the tractor beam long enough.  Yes, it is, in my mind , perspective.  Yet I get what George is saying, perhaps because that's the way I tend to look at things.  We left.  Was it troublesome?  To a degree, but it had to be done.  Did I lose some sleep, yes, but I lose sleep when my new grandson is sick too.  So, we soberly undertook all of the necessary steps to do so, and then it was done, so we moved on.  I suppose if someone has much angst, then it needs to be ministered to.

Sometimes I think we convince ourselves that we should be sad, or in this case see something as tragic.  Sometimes we try to convince others that they shouldn't view events in a certain way.  I remember in seminary while meeting with the psychologist, I told him that there are times when they cause more problems than they fix.  This was because he tried to convince me that my life had been harder than I thought.  OK, perhaps a little deflection on my part.

I guess I am pretty good at compartalizing.  For my part, I have seen tragedy....and for me and the folks at Christ Lutheran Church, this wasn't it.

For all of you who indeed suffer, I am sorry.  Keep in prayer, and know the power of healing in Christ Jesus.

Peace,
Tom

Yeah, I guess I would have to agree that I have absolutely no regrets about leaving and no remorse for having done so or having worked with the congregational leaderships to get things together for such a move out of the ELCA. I won't deny that there is some pain though. There is pain in the sense that what one "hoped" would be in fact cannot be. The dream was not fulfilled. Yet that is something I have dealt with over the last couple of years and I'm at peace with it.

I will say this: I wholeheartedly disagree with Pastor Steven and Erma about their decisions to stay in the ELCA and their reasoning. However I will also say as a word of warning for those of us who left that the Scripture commands us not to whoop it up over the downfall of the ELCA or anyone or anything that practices evil. We are to mourn, because God's wrath is no laughing matter and there are souls out there being directed to destruction because of the direction of the ELCA.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6280 on: April 04, 2011, 04:45:22 PM »
Have you noticed that the reaction here to your posts on this subject is more-or-less universal?  You might want to reflect on why that is so.  Until then, you likely will continue to stand alone, aggravating everyone else in the process.

Jim

No, I have not noticed that. I have noticed that the usual suspects in here keep lamenting that any vote to change affiliations is a tragedy, while the private e-mails and messages I receive on this topic, and the comments I read in other venues, and what I learn from direct conversations with people who are in new start-ups after being on the losing side of a "leave-the-ECLA" vote is that the aftermath of votes to change affiliation is usually very, very positive. There are always the isolated anecdotes here and there about a few individuals who over-react, but generally speaking, the people I've heard from who have been through this process are positive, optimistic, and upbeat.

Now, if the truth aggravates some people, then the question is whether it is the person telling the truth or the people who are aggravated by the truth who need to re-examine themselves.

dkeener

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6281 on: April 04, 2011, 09:27:48 PM »
Sorry again, Lou, but this just reads "I thank God that I am not like...."


Lets put that quote into context - The Pharisee thanked God that he was not like other men -"Robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector."  He self-righteously believed that he had no sin to confess. In the context of the debate between the ELCA, and every other alphabet soup Lutheran denomination, on the issue of sexually active homosexual clergy - who is it exactly that is saying there is no sin to confess?  

Well, I can easily see it being like a divorcing couple when one puts all the blame on the other, e.g., s/he was unfaithful; without considering one's own role in the breakup.

But what if one was unfaithful?

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6282 on: April 04, 2011, 10:19:26 PM »
Did not intend to ignore your simple question, Tim.  My alma mater is Augustana College, Sioux Falls, SD.  It may be true that other ELCA colleges had there beginning 150 years ago.  In 2014 it will be 50 years since I graduated.  Those were good years.  A bunch of us pre-sem guys became very close friends.  Had an excellent Greek teacher who later became an Old Testament professor at Luther Seminary, Jim Limburg.  Daily chapel brought some 300 students together for worship five days a week.

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6283 on: April 04, 2011, 11:15:04 PM »
Did not intend to ignore your simple question, Tim.  My alma mater is Augustana College, Sioux Falls, SD.  It may be true that other ELCA colleges had there beginning 150 years ago.  In 2014 it will be 50 years since I graduated.  Those were good years.  A bunch of us pre-sem guys became very close friends.  Had an excellent Greek teacher who later became an Old Testament professor at Luther Seminary, Jim Limburg.  Daily chapel brought some 300 students together for worship five days a week.

It is indeed true that many of the Lutheran colleges in MN/IA/IL are celebrating their sesquicentennials about now.  The waves of Scandinavian (and some German) immigrants got to that part of the country in the middle of the nineteenth century and very quickly started building many institutions, including colleges.

Gustavus Adolphus celebrates its 150th in 2012.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6284 on: April 05, 2011, 01:27:19 AM »
Sorry again, Lou, but this just reads "I thank God that I am not like...."


Lets put that quote into context - The Pharisee thanked God that he was not like other men -"Robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector."  He self-righteously believed that he had no sin to confess. In the context of the debate between the ELCA, and every other alphabet soup Lutheran denomination, on the issue of sexually active homosexual clergy - who is it exactly that is saying there is no sin to confess?  

Well, I can easily see it being like a divorcing couple when one puts all the blame on the other, e.g., s/he was unfaithful; without considering one's own role in the breakup.

But what if one was unfaithful?

You don't think that the faithful one should consider ways s/he might have contributed to the other's desire to be unfaithful, e.g., been more affectionate, considerate, etc.?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]