Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 798435 times)

Steverem

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6195 on: April 01, 2011, 04:39:16 PM »
The two congregations which are departing should not extend an invitation to other ELCA congregations. Yes, the ELCA congregations should extend an invitation. may not appear to make sense, but it does. Trust me

Give us one good reason why we should trust that you have the credentials or authority to make such a pronouncement, so that we should trust your word as authoritative and/or accurate? 

On Friday, May 20th 2011 at or around 1500 hours I will be awarded, by Lutheran Theological Seminary-Philly, a Diploma of Theological Studies. This diploma, which is predicated upon the successful completion of MDiv level courses for non-traditional seminarians, now gives one good reason. ;) ;)

I warn you however, after May 20th I will no longer engage in conversation with pewsitters  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 :-*
Robert M Rainis. DipTh   

Enjoy that one day of theological supremacy, Bob.   ;)

Keith Falk

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6196 on: April 01, 2011, 04:50:12 PM »
But Pr. Steven, I will be there still, if for no other reason than to "fulfill all righteousness" as we haven't left... Yet. ;D

Do you, or anyone else, care to speculate on severely the exodus of traditionalist congregations, clergy, and individual members will impact the decisions and deliberations of upcoming synod assemblies? Might that shift to gving the revisionists an even larger majority create a situation in which many of the traditionalists who chose to stay and "work from within" might throw in the towel and join the exodus?

 

FWIW - in the Southern Ohio Synod, the power dynamics will have dramatically shifted.  One of the largest congregations in the ELCA (Upper Arlington Lutheran Church) was in our synod and has left - they received many extra delegates voting members, due to their size.  Epiphany Lutheran, the second largest in our synod, has split (though I think they still might be the largest, now that UALC has left) and will certainly receive fewer voting members.  Several other congregations have left - and many, though not all, had very active lay people in our synod, including synod council members and members of various committees and task forces of the synod.

To show how divided we are as a synod - a motion before the 09CWA passed memorializing the CWA to not pass the social statement.  At the 2010 synod assembly, a motion urging the 11CWA to rescind the 09CWA's actions did not pass - the final vote was a tie - and several congregations had not yet left.  The balance has absolutely shifted in our synod and we are in an entirely different atmosphere now.

As a post script, Southern Ohio has always been terribly divided even before this stuff, due to ALC v. LCA; Hamma v. ELTS (two seminaries which merged to form Trinity), Capital v. Wittenberg, and so forth.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 08:58:36 PM by Keith Falk »
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George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6197 on: April 01, 2011, 05:11:14 PM »
The two congregations which are departing should not extend an invitation to other ELCA congregations. Yes, the ELCA congregations should extend an invitation. may not appear to make sense, but it does. Trust me

Give us one good reason why we should trust that you have the credentials or authority to make such a pronouncement, so that we should trust your word as authoritative and/or accurate? 

On Friday, May 20th 2011 at or around 1500 hours I will be awarded, by Lutheran Theological Seminary-Philly, a Diploma of Theological Studies. This diploma, which is predicated upon the successful completion of MDiv level courses for non-traditional seminarians, now gives one good reason. ;) ;)

I warn you however, after May 20th I will no longer engage in conversation with pewsitters  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 :-*
Robert M Rainis. DipTh   

That is an interesting fact. Congratulations on your accomplishment. I don't see what that has to do with the question I asked, but mazel tov on getting your sheepskin.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6198 on: April 01, 2011, 05:17:38 PM »
No, Lou, you don't get it. Not at all. Mudslinging and name-calling are never acceptable, and I challenge you to show where the ELCA says that it is.


Indeed, Charles, the ELCA does not say that such is okay.  But when so many of its spokesmen, from the Presiding Bishop on down, engage in it so frequently, it is just part of the atmosphere of this church in which you and I serve.

Christe eleison, Steven+
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George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6199 on: April 01, 2011, 05:25:06 PM »
No, Lou, you don't get it. Not at all. Mudslinging and name-calling are never acceptable, and I challenge you to show where the ELCA says that it is.


Indeed, Charles, the ELCA does not say that such is okay.  But when so many of its spokesmen, from the Presiding Bishop on down, engage in it so frequently, it is just part of the atmosphere of this church in which you and I serve.

Christe eleison, Steven+

Pastor Tibbetts, I believe this is another of those situations of the type I used to always get tripped up by, in which I assumed that because the ELCA consistently did something, that meant it was the ELCA's policy to do things that way. After many corrections about that error, mostly from Austin but often from you as well, I stopped making that mistake.   

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6200 on: April 01, 2011, 05:34:34 PM »
Steven writes (re name-calling and mud-slinging):
 But when so many of its spokesmen, from the Presiding Bishop on down, engage in it so frequently, it is just part of the atmosphere of this church in which you and I serve.
I comment:
Do you want to give me some examples?

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6201 on: April 01, 2011, 05:56:21 PM »

Do you want to give me some examples?


Perhaps you've forgotten what so many of your responses on this forum respond to.  A good place to start would be to search references throughout this forum over the years to "Mark Hanson" or "Herb Chilstrom" or "Jon Pahl" or the names of several synodical bishops or references to assistants to the Bishop and members of seminary faculties or editorials and comments in The Lutheran or first-hand reports by several of us from our Synod Assemblies. 

kyrie eleison, spt+
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GoCubsGo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6202 on: April 01, 2011, 06:05:20 PM »
   As for Pastor Copeck's protestations, I have a simple response: Get real. You know what is coming, you can prepare your parish records year round to get you ready.  And even if it were to take you six hours to prepare the report, what in the name of Aunt Hattie's goat would be wrong with that?

My comments, I thought, were understood as somewhat tongue in cheek.  That being said, I still hate doing annual reports for some of the reasons noted by others.  It usually took me between 4 and 6 hours to run around/call for the info I needed, to compile that info, and fill out the forms.  There was nothing wrong with doing those reports, it comes with the job. But I can't say I miss it.  I'd place right alongside other tedious tasks that one must do (cleaning bathrooms, picking up branches in the yard, and doing my taxes), tasks that I know have to be done but I don't enjoy them.  There are other things I do, indeed, miss about being in the ELCA.  Not enough to make me stay, however.

But then again, as for things that come with the job... like dealing with nasty parishioners, jerkish LCMC "hotheads", arrogant former reporters, and retired pastors...  those things can come with the job but I can't say I much enjoy them.

Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6203 on: April 01, 2011, 06:43:05 PM »
get all the financial information, arrange it so that it lined up with the categories desired by the ELCA, and re-total that information.  

Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. Seems to me they could greatly simplify that form, with fewer and more generic categories.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6204 on: April 01, 2011, 06:50:37 PM »
get all the financial information, arrange it so that it lined up with the categories desired by the ELCA, and re-total that information.  

Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. Seems to me they could greatly simplify that form, with fewer and more generic categories.

Just out of curiosity, what are all of those categories?

vicarbob

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6205 on: April 01, 2011, 08:30:11 PM »

That is an interesting fact. Congratulations on your accomplishment. I don't see what that has to do with the question I asked, but mazel tov on getting your sheepskin.

 ??? ??? ??? George, I was exempt from Greek ??? ??? ??? ???

amos

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6206 on: April 01, 2011, 08:49:22 PM »
""We" who are in the ELCA majority, whose views reflect the overall thrust of our church body, who are actively working within and for our synods and the ELCA are supposed to be so "concerned" about those who disagree, so "sensitive" to their hurt feelings, so "considerate" of their positions that we are not to speak of them as rigid fundamentalists, ignorant rubes, or homophobic yahoos (even when some of them exhibit some of the characteristics of those who are)."

Well said Charles, you perfectly defined how the progressives folks perceive those who still believe in orthodox, traditional Christianity!  (rigid fundamentalists, ignorant rubes, or homophobic yahoos) 

This is exactly what I and many others have been trying to make clear to you for some time now.  We have seen and heard that message LOUD and CLEAR over an over at our assemblies -- at least in this synod.   

Keith Falk

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6207 on: April 01, 2011, 09:03:03 PM »

That is an interesting fact. Congratulations on your accomplishment. I don't see what that has to do with the question I asked, but mazel tov on getting your sheepskin.

 ??? ??? ??? George, I was exempt from Greek ??? ??? ??? ???

Must've been exempt from Hebrew, too. ::)  Good fortune/luck is the literal translation... it means congratulations in modern parlance.  "tov" is the Hebrew word for good - as in, "God saw...and it was good".
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6208 on: April 01, 2011, 10:25:37 PM »
No "amos," you over-react and spew your bias once again. My point was and is that we do not consider those who call themselves traditionalists in the less-than-salutary categories I listed. And we take pains to make it clear that we do not. Meanwhile, some feel free to continually hurl invectives and other venom in our direction, without complaint or correction.

But since you have left, I am glad you now feel free from whatever it was you believed the ELCA dumped on you.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 10:44:28 PM by Charles_Austin »

GoCubsGo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #6209 on: April 01, 2011, 10:39:03 PM »
get all the financial information, arrange it so that it lined up with the categories desired by the ELCA, and re-total that information.  

Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. Seems to me they could greatly simplify that form, with fewer and more generic categories.
But if you were a "competent" and "diligent" you would get bugged by this.   ;D