Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817247 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4530 on: November 28, 2010, 09:14:34 AM »
Yeah - Jesus just upped the anti- not just deeds but thoughts as well.

Yup, and he threw out some others as well; like working on the sabbath or stoning an adulteress, and the unclean food (and people) rules.

Quote
Paul included a few in Romans, and Galatians,

Yup, and he threw out some others as well, like requiring circumcision. (He also seems to ignore some of the Apostolic Council's requirements in in Acts 15 in regards to dietary laws, but he does require contributing to the needs of the poor -- something the Council did not require.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4531 on: November 28, 2010, 09:21:46 AM »

True Mike, but surely you remember when, after I asked Brian S. if Jesus was God. He stated "Not during his time on earth".


Actually, I didn't remember that.  I'll admit it's a prize-winner.

Please offer your explanation for these biblical passages about Jesus:

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." (Phl 2:6b)

"He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phl 2:7)

This Sunday (for those using the Revised Common Lectionary) will hear:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mt 24:36)



Then please explain Jesus saying "I and the Father are one..." ?  Give me a break, for crying out loud...

The picture John paints of Jesus is different from the pictures of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It's been argued that John is more about the "Christ of faith," than the "Jesus of history." In the Gospel of Mark, for example, Jesus never refers to himself as "Son of God," but always "Son of man." Mark would not have Jesus saying that he and the father are one. That's not his picture of Jesus. Conversely, John see the crucifixion as an hour of glory, and he does not have Jesus quote Psalm 22:1: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." If his picture includes the Son and Father being one, there couldn't be any forsakenness. Instead, John has the crucifixion fulfill other OT passages: one about bones and one about being pierced.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4532 on: November 28, 2010, 09:29:44 AM »

No.  Because they don't hold up to scrutiny, failing the qualification of coherence.


The challenge is addressing the extensive use of "It's been my experience" introductions to much of what passes for theological inquiry.  Because feelings have no inherent internal coherence, there is little beyond emoting and personal stories.  Maybe it's the logical result of the CPE approach to pastoral formation and the (maybe) two required systematics courses in seminary.  Legions of pastors are unable to tell an argument makes no sense and that's assuming it is biblical to begin with.
Well, in my case, your argument fails. I never had CPE, and our first two required theology courses were taught as Biblical theology by the choice of the professors. Biblical theology has much less internal coherence than systematics. You will find me often quoting scriptures and seldom, if ever, quoting systemeticians.

I also recall numerous times where your comments are based on your experiences as (1) a parish pastor who has always had congregations grow, (2) a parish pastor who helped start self-supporting foreign-language congregations and a ministry to lesbians, (3) a parish pastor who heard one homosexual supporter talk about destroying the church, (4) an assistant to the bishop and your numerous experiences in that role; and there are probably others.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 09:33:33 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4533 on: November 28, 2010, 09:32:04 AM »
I recently wrote a post that ended with a couple very arrogant sentences.  I have deleted them and apologize for having written them.

Apology accepted.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4534 on: November 28, 2010, 09:37:47 AM »
Brian and Charles irritate many here, but that does not seem to stop folk from responding to them.  Instead of making them the problem, it would be very helpful if others at least much of the time simply refused to get into endless back and forth messages.  It takes two to tango, and complainers seem determined to tangle with our ELCA defender friends and then complain about the waste of time. 


Paul, it has taken me far too long to reach this point with some here, particularly one of the two you mention. It is the only way to handle the situation. Unless and until the moderators take some conclusive action, ignoring is the only choice, and the best choice, for all here. I know it's hard to do, but ignoring those whom you simply are unable to respond to without climbing down into the mud pit with them is the only way to go.

I know the issue is mine, but I hate ignoring heresy and error.  Mine as well as others...

Time to take another Xanax.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4535 on: November 28, 2010, 10:00:08 PM »
Do you think you get anywhere, Jerry, in confronting "heresy" and "error" here?  I have no problems with meaningful dialogue and serious engagement.  I for one rather see people getting hooked and very little constructive happens.  I find It more helpful when I interact here with folk who may differ from me but with whom I can expect more than an endless back and forth that only irritates and takes up everyone's time.  I may disagree with Scott Yakemow on some matters, but I learn from him and others.

kls

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4536 on: November 28, 2010, 10:24:20 PM »
For some of us, it's all about the lurkers (beyond learning something ourselves).   ;D

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4537 on: November 29, 2010, 09:27:17 AM »
Personally I believe lurkers and many of us who see ourselves as confessional Lutherans (various labels may apply) will be helped more by engaging one another on the pros and cons of our passion for a distinct identity that is not lost in the culture.  I believe we need to hold to our convictions but also recognize that too often we simply circle the wagons and our witness to an unbelieving world, a broken world loses its vitality as we get involved in intramural spats.

We may or may not be up to that challenge.  We seem to be enamored by our little battles.  I am sure they also need airing and attention, but for us to claim to be passionate about the Great Commission will necessitate major energies given to modes of witness needed to make our mission effective.  I just finished a little book, "The Heavenly Man", which tells the stories of leaders of the more pentecostal house church movement in China.  We may disagree theologically with them, but it seems they illustrate our need to focus our prime energies on making Jesus Christ known through word and deed in the world.  This will challenge us more than circular arguments that go nowhere.

I am off to my part time work at our congregation.

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4538 on: November 29, 2010, 09:51:02 AM »
"Enamored by our little battles." Ain't it the truth!
Some are still honked off by Seminex in the 1970s, others cite the allegedly on-going troubles caused by even earlier disputes, for example "The 44". Then there was Yankee Stadium almost a decade ago.
Some started to get mad at the ELCA in 1987 when their favorite idea was not incorporated into the church body. Others started looking at the doors early on as certain ecumenical relations developed.
And several bishops have told me that they have congregations harboring resentments from the 1960 merger.

As far as the ELCA-LCMS difference, I say: Let us leave each other alone. Let us continue the magnificent cooperation in Lutheran World Relief, domestic disaster response, and our social service agencies. We in the ELCA should not throw rocks at the LCMS because of who they won't ordain, and they should not toss spears at us because of who we will.
Internally, I have no idea how the LCMS should work out the problems (bizarre to me) of pastors individually deciding to excommunicate one another and the related difficulties.
Internally, I believe the ELCA can find ways for some (not all, but some) people of different opinions to be together in the same church. Others have apparently decided that the ELCA is to far gone and that they can no longer give it proper allegiance as the part of the body of Christ in which they minister. O.k., I get that. Rather than stay in and howl, it may be healthier for all if they left.

pr dtp

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4539 on: November 29, 2010, 02:26:14 PM »
"Enamored by our little battles." Ain't it the truth!
Some are still honked off by Seminex in the 1970s, others cite the allegedly on-going troubles caused by even earlier disputes, for example "The 44". Then there was Yankee Stadium almost a decade ago.
Some started to get mad at the ELCA in 1987 when their favorite idea was not incorporated into the church body. Others started looking at the doors early on as certain ecumenical relations developed.
And several bishops have told me that they have congregations harboring resentments from the 1960 merger.

As far as the ELCA-LCMS difference, I say: Let us leave each other alone. Let us continue the magnificent cooperation in Lutheran World Relief, domestic disaster response, and our social service agencies. We in the ELCA should not throw rocks at the LCMS because of who they won't ordain, and they should not toss spears at us because of who we will.
Internally, I have no idea how the LCMS should work out the problems (bizarre to me) of pastors individually deciding to excommunicate one another and the related difficulties.
Internally, I believe the ELCA can find ways for some (not all, but some) people of different opinions to be together in the same church. Others have apparently decided that the ELCA is to far gone and that they can no longer give it proper allegiance as the part of the body of Christ in which they minister. O.k., I get that. Rather than stay in and howl, it may be healthier for all if they left.


Wow - it lasted all of one line...

gcnuss

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4540 on: November 29, 2010, 04:06:16 PM »
Yup, and he threw out some others as well; like working on the sabbath or stoning an adulteress, and the unclean food (and people) rules.

And he told the adulteress to keep on doing what she was doing -- wait, that wasn't it at all.  How about "sin no more."

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4541 on: November 29, 2010, 05:22:16 PM »
"Enamored by our little battles." Ain't it the truth!
Some are still honked off by Seminex in the 1970s, others cite the allegedly on-going troubles caused by even earlier disputes, for example "The 44". Then there was Yankee Stadium almost a decade ago.
Some started to get mad at the ELCA in 1987 when their favorite idea was not incorporated into the church body. Others started looking at the doors early on as certain ecumenical relations developed.
And several bishops have told me that they have congregations harboring resentments from the 1960 merger.

As far as the ELCA-LCMS difference, I say: Let us leave each other alone. Let us continue the magnificent cooperation in Lutheran World Relief, domestic disaster response, and our social service agencies. We in the ELCA should not throw rocks at the LCMS because of who they won't ordain, and they should not toss spears at us because of who we will.
Internally, I have no idea how the LCMS should work out the problems (bizarre to me) of pastors individually deciding to excommunicate one another and the related difficulties.
Internally, I believe the ELCA can find ways for some (not all, but some) people of different opinions to be together in the same church. Others have apparently decided that the ELCA is to far gone and that they can no longer give it proper allegiance as the part of the body of Christ in which they minister. O.k., I get that. Rather than stay in and howl, it may be healthier for all if they left.


Wow - it lasted all of one line...


I would have highlighted the entire last paragraph, too. 

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4542 on: November 29, 2010, 05:26:57 PM »
Just trying to relieve the burden of "traditionalists" gloomed over with angst, made bitter by alleged blacklisting, hypertensive with hysteria or otherwise beset by the miasma of the ELCA. We are told by many (just ask Pastor Awtry) that green pastures beckon. Hearken.

dkeener

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4543 on: November 29, 2010, 05:44:46 PM »
Just trying to relieve the burden of "traditionalists" gloomed over with angst, made bitter by alleged blacklisting, hypertensive with hysteria or otherwise beset by the miasma of the ELCA. We are told by many (just ask Pastor Awtry) that green pastures beckon. Hearken.

I stand in awe of your pastoral skill, sensitivity and commitment to bound conscience.

Pilgrim

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4544 on: November 29, 2010, 05:59:49 PM »
Just trying to relieve the burden of "traditionalists" gloomed over with angst, made bitter by alleged blacklisting, hypertensive with hysteria or otherwise beset by the miasma of the ELCA. We are told by many (just ask Pastor Awtry) that green pastures beckon. Hearken.

I stand in awe of your pastoral skill, sensitivity and commitment to bound conscience.


We all do.  ;)
Pr. Tim Christ, STS