Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817184 times)

Tom Senge

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4515 on: November 27, 2010, 09:05:19 PM »
Thus he proves that Jesus was not divine before His resurrection,

I never said that Jesus was not divine. He emptied himself of his divine attributes while on earth, thus he could be born and die. He was not everywhere present, but was limited to being present where his human body was. Are you going to offer your interpretation of the passages I quoted?


Brian,
The first thing that came to mind with respect to Jesus being "limited to being present where his human body was", was the call of Nathaniel.  Now I know we don't know the distance from which Jesus saw Nathanial, but Jesus did say that Nathaniel believed because he had told him he had seen him.

We teach and confess that Jesus was fully human and fully divine.  That has always been my belief, and although sometimes I wonder (about the other passages you cited), I see that as my inability to totally comprehend the divine.   I hold that belief because "The father and I are one."  A simple faith is rather refreshing at times.

Peace to you,
Tom
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 09:09:42 PM by Tom Senge »

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4516 on: November 27, 2010, 09:05:32 PM »
And of course, defending the ELCA is not appropriate for this forum and those few (two?) who want to do so should be ignored.

Well, this is "The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up."

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Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4517 on: November 27, 2010, 09:27:18 PM »
Scott writes:
Somehow, likely knowing how internet forums work, Brian continues to repeat what he's repeated with great regularity, no matter how many times before his arguments have been discredited.
I comment:
Discredited by whom? Just because you and others here don't like them? Pastor Stoffregen's positions and methods (as I have said before) are more like what I have experienced in the ULCA, LCA and ELCA and in other parts of the world that the "arguments" presented by some here calling themselves "traditionalists." And BTW, his views are now those shaping policy in the  ELCA.
As for "continues to repeat," let us examine some of the LCMS slams at the ELCA going back several years. Same song. Second verse. Little bit louder. Little bit worse. Good grief!
 

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4518 on: November 27, 2010, 09:41:08 PM »
And BTW, his views are now those shaping policy in the  ELCA.
 

You state that as if it is a good thing.

Marshall Hahn

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4519 on: November 27, 2010, 09:57:13 PM »
I wrote (Re Pastor Stoffregen):
And BTW, his views are now those shaping policy in the  ELCA.

Pastor Hahn opines:
You state that as if it is a good thing.

I comment:
No. I did not. I wrote it as a statement of fact.
Pastor Stoffregen's comments here generally reflect the policy of the ELCA when it comes to matters relating to the social statement on human sexuality.
For some people, this is a "good thing." For others it is not. But it is reality.

Scott6

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4520 on: November 27, 2010, 10:02:20 PM »
Scott writes:
Somehow, likely knowing how internet forums work, Brian continues to repeat what he's repeated with great regularity, no matter how many times before his arguments have been discredited.
I comment:
Discredited by whom? Just because you and others here don't like them?

No.  Because they don't hold up to scrutiny, failing the qualification of coherence.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 07:32:54 AM by Scott Yakimow »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4521 on: November 27, 2010, 11:55:31 PM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.

And to think that thousands of pastors read this guy's Gospel Notes for Sunday week after week after week.

Unless, of course, St. Paul, the Church Fathers, and Our Lord are to be included with "moderns."

I certainly don't see Jesus, Paul, or the Church Fathers adopting all of the OT laws.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

pr dtp

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4522 on: November 28, 2010, 12:23:31 AM »
Tim notes: Confusing covenant with a variety of other cultural laws. Astute exegesis.  :P

An Old Testament command is an Old Testament command. The divisions of covenant, cultural, cultic, moral commands is one moderns make as they discern which ones we can ignore and which ones are important to keep.

And to think that thousands of pastors read this guy's Gospel Notes for Sunday week after week after week.

Unless, of course, St. Paul, the Church Fathers, and Our Lord are to be included with "moderns."

I certainly don't see Jesus, Paul, or the Church Fathers adopting all of the OT laws.

Yeah - Jesus just upped the anti- not just deeds but thoughts as well.

Paul included a few in Romans, and Galatians,


Eugene Crowner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4523 on: November 28, 2010, 01:13:37 AM »
And the arguments opposing the views of Pastor Stoffregen are equally predictable, repetitive and plowing the same soil. They have not been convincing in years of debate and are not likely to be convincing now.
Yes, those argument are predictable and old, because they are time-tested and proven.

I'm sure farmers of generations past could tell us the time-tested and proven horse breeds to use in plowing and harvesting their fields. Their arguments, as good as they are, are not really relevant to farmers who are now using motorized vehicles for their plowing and harvesting. Farmers in the first or even the 16th century had no idea of the farm issues and implements that farmers use and discuss today.

Within business, relying on the time-tested and proven ways of the past are certain to mean failure in the future. "Wrecked by success" is a phrase in one book I've read. "If it ain't broke, break it," is the title of another book.


While the technology used to accomplish the work on a farm may have progressed from hand to horse to tractor, the basic idea of planting a seed, providing the best conditions for the plant to grow in, and harvesting the result is timeless and what farming is all about. 

However, being a city slicker and retired railroader, I may be missing the point somewhere along the way.

I would be remiss if I did not mention Jim, a horse that my late father greatly admired on their farm in eastern Colorado some 90 years ago.

Eugene Crowner

Maryland Brian

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4524 on: November 28, 2010, 06:19:22 AM »

No.  Because they don't hold up to scrutiny, failing the qualification of coherence.


The challenge is addressing the extensive use of "It's been my experience" introductions to much of what passes for theological inquiry.  Because feelings have no inherent internal coherence, there is little beyond emoting and personal stories.  Maybe it's the logical result of the CPE approach to pastoral formation and the (maybe) two required systematics courses in seminary.  Legions of pastors are unable to tell an argument makes no sense and that's assuming it is biblical to begin with.

Scott6

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4525 on: November 28, 2010, 07:54:09 AM »
I recently wrote a post that ended with a couple very arrogant sentences.  I have deleted them and apologize for having written them.

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4526 on: November 28, 2010, 08:42:28 AM »
I think scott deleted the whole posting, so I have deleted my response dealing with it.

ptmccain

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4527 on: November 28, 2010, 08:43:14 AM »
Nice Scott, class act.

Scott6

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4528 on: November 28, 2010, 08:48:01 AM »
I think scott deleted the whole posting, so I have deleted my response dealing with it.

Thank you.

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4529 on: November 28, 2010, 08:53:17 AM »
I think scott deleted the whole posting, so I have deleted my response dealing with it.


As have I. Everyone have a wonderful Advent Sunday.

TV
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