Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817155 times)

jrubyaz

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4440 on: November 26, 2010, 01:06:31 PM »
I have heard this myth so many times it makes me puke.

Let's deal with reality, Brian.

1) the whole mantra of the "youth of today" are accepting of the ELCA changes is pure bunk. First, it doesn't take into account people change as they age. The hippies  became the yuppies. Many become more conservative, some become more liberal, but it is something that is not static, it evolves. To say what a person believes at 20 is what they will believe at 40 is foolish.

2) Ever check the average age of ELCA members? Average readership of the Lutheran magazine is over 70. Our pews are filled with more white hairs than gray. Could that be our Lutheran kids are moving to #3 below?

3) the LARGEST youth groups for Christians in our nation are not found in mainline churches. They are found in the non-denoms. Probably one reason is they teach from the bible there on a regular basis and don't substitute social action for real study. If that is the case, do ya think that maybe, just maybe, most CHRISTIAN youth don't agree with your high schooler? Why are Lutheran youth groups dying? What is the model used?  Mostly entertainment and throw in a few trips to do social action projects. That isn't youth ministry, by a long shot.

4) Most thoughtful people understand that all ELCA churches welcome everyone. We are all sinners. This is about leadership and qualities for leadership in the church. All are welcome. So your youth should be told all are welcome, but the church is divided over who should be leaders and pastors in the church.

Jeff


quote author=Brian Stoffregen link=topic=2616.msg190873#msg190873 date=1290787092]
In re: the comments on a previous page about what "is" or "is not" the ELCA, I offer the following personal experience as a pastor of a non-ELCA congregation...

In the process of recruiting new students for our school, I have had to spend a significant amount of time explaining to non-Lutheran parents who have heard things about the ELCA (usually in the context of news reports about the CWA '09 or activities related to it, like what happened in California with the reception of pastors), that our congregation, school, and Lutheran denomination are not part of, nor do we accept the actions of, the ELCA with regard to its teachings on human sexuality and specifically same-sex relationships.

I was just talking with a high schooler who asked why some congregations are leaving the ELCA. She couldn't fathom why accepting homosexuals in the church should be an issue. My hunch is that her view is the more common view among teens and young adults today.
[/quote]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4441 on: November 26, 2010, 01:09:41 PM »
I'm talking to parents, Brian, not the students.

You shared your experience. I shared mine. Why should mine count less than yours?

Quote
Also, I can't fathom why accepting homosexuals in church should be an issue, either. What I also can't fathom is a church teaching that same-sex marriage and relationships are Scripturally sanctioned, or that it is wrong to hold leaders of the church to higher standards of conduct and behavior.

I don't believe that we are teaching that same-sex marriage and relationships are scripturally sanctioned. Rather we argue that they are not scripturally prohibited. What scripture does not command nor forbid is adiaphora and Christians can disagree about them; and Christians are left to use their own best judgment about such issues.

Quote
You are a one-note Johnny on this topic, Brian, and will never pass up an attempt to muddy the waters with comments that are completely unrelated to the remarks of others.

Well, the waters about this issue are muddy. You listen and talk to people. I listen and talk to people -- how is that so different?

Brian, I never said your anecdote wasn't worth sharing. I was saying that your anecdote had absolutely nothing to do with the issue I was addressing.

Not scripturally prohibited? Hmm...let me see, where is the issue of same-sex sexual behavior in the Bible ever NOT condemned....oh, that's right, it's readily condemned each time it is addressed. I must have some pages missing from my Bible.  Can you enlighten me which translations might not have the pages missing, so that I can reach the same enlightened conclusion which you have?

The same-sex sexual behaviors in those text is much closer to rape than the behaviors within a mutual-loving, life-long, monogamous relationship. Thus, using them to prohibit what we are talking about is comparing apples and oranges (or my anecdotes with yours?) We continue to oppose rape, forced and coerced sex, one-night stands, and other sexual behaviors that are outside a publicly accountable, life-long, monogamous relationship.

Show me where the Bible ever says that same-gender couples cannot marry.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

jrubyaz

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4442 on: November 26, 2010, 01:12:53 PM »

How about Genesis and Matthew where one man and one woman are mentioned?

A lot of things are not mentioned as prohibited.......but a lot of things are also mentioned as the norm and standard for faith and life. Try as you want to ignore them, Brian, they are still there.



I'm talking to parents, Brian, not the students.

You shared your experience. I shared mine. Why should mine count less than yours?

Quote
Also, I can't fathom why accepting homosexuals in church should be an issue, either. What I also can't fathom is a church teaching that same-sex marriage and relationships are Scripturally sanctioned, or that it is wrong to hold leaders of the church to higher standards of conduct and behavior.

I don't believe that we are teaching that same-sex marriage and relationships are scripturally sanctioned. Rather we argue that they are not scripturally prohibited. What scripture does not command nor forbid is adiaphora and Christians can disagree about them; and Christians are left to use their own best judgment about such issues.

Quote
You are a one-note Johnny on this topic, Brian, and will never pass up an attempt to muddy the waters with comments that are completely unrelated to the remarks of others.

Well, the waters about this issue are muddy. You listen and talk to people. I listen and talk to people -- how is that so different?

Brian, I never said your anecdote wasn't worth sharing. I was saying that your anecdote had absolutely nothing to do with the issue I was addressing.

Not scripturally prohibited? Hmm...let me see, where is the issue of same-sex sexual behavior in the Bible ever NOT condemned....oh, that's right, it's readily condemned each time it is addressed. I must have some pages missing from my Bible.  Can you enlighten me which translations might not have the pages missing, so that I can reach the same enlightened conclusion which you have?

The same-sex sexual behaviors in those text is much closer to rape than the behaviors within a mutual-loving, life-long, monogamous relationship. Thus, using them to prohibit what we are talking about is comparing apples and oranges (or my anecdotes with yours?) We continue to oppose rape, forced and coerced sex, one-night stands, and other sexual behaviors that are outside a publicly accountable, life-long, monogamous relationship.

Show me where the Bible ever says that same-gender couples cannot marry.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4443 on: November 26, 2010, 01:21:37 PM »
I have heard this myth so many times it makes me puke.

Let's deal with reality, Brian.

1) the whole mantra of the "youth of today" are accepting of the ELCA changes is pure bunk. First, it doesn't take into account people change as they age. The hippies  became the yuppies. Many become more conservative, some become more liberal, but it is something that is not static, it evolves. To say what a person believes at 20 is what they will believe at 40 is foolish.

True, I became much more liberal. I wonder now and repent of how I was so judgmental in my younger years.

Quote
3) the LARGEST youth groups for Christians in our nation are not found in mainline churches. They are found in the non-denoms. Probably one reason is they teach from the bible there on a regular basis and don't substitute social action for real study. If that is the case, do ya think that maybe, just maybe, most CHRISTIAN youth don't agree with your high schooler? Why are Lutheran youth groups dying? What is the model used?  Mostly entertainment and throw in a few trips to do social action projects. That isn't youth ministry, by a long shot.

The largest groups of youth are found outside of the church. Part of the reason, for many, is that they see church as irrelevant to their lives. The church is busy arguing things that are of little to no interest to them -- like homosexual relationships. (After saying this a few years ago, I checked with my sons who are now 31 & 29 -- and homosexual relationships are non-issues with them; and they can't understand why it's such a big issue in the church.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4444 on: November 26, 2010, 01:23:12 PM »

How about Genesis and Matthew where one man and one woman are mentioned?

Doesn't say that one man and one man are excluded.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4445 on: November 26, 2010, 01:42:40 PM »


The largest groups of youth are found outside of the church. Part of the reason, for many, is that they see church as irrelevant to their lives. The church is busy arguing things that are of little to no interest to them -- like homosexual relationships. (After saying this a few years ago, I checked with my sons who are now 31 & 29 -- and homosexual relationships are non-issues with them; and they can't understand why it's such a big issue in the church.)
Okay, Brian, so using your logic, let's determine God's will for them by asking them how to make church relevant to them?  Let's take a poll to determine what the Church should preach, teach, and embody!

Interesting that that "largest group" of youth outside the church aren't attending Unitarian Universalist assemblies either. 

Maryland Brian

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4446 on: November 26, 2010, 01:50:14 PM »


 (After saying this a few years ago, I checked with my sons who are now 31 & 29 -- and homosexual relationships are non-issues with them; and they can't understand why it's such a big issue in the church.)

So as their father and a pastor I guess this means your kids learned their stance from you, yes?

Pilgrim

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4447 on: November 26, 2010, 02:12:08 PM »

How about Genesis and Matthew where one man and one woman are mentioned?

Doesn't say that one man and one man are excluded.

Tim muses: So, the fourth commandment doesn't apply, which implies the others are iffy, too, which ultimately leads to the position that "everything" is utterly subjective and relative, which is, perhaps, a great temporal way to salve the conscience (your old mental tapes of animosity toward the LCMS are showing), but for most of us called to be shepherd's of God's flock in these environs, the consequences of such a position is woefully and even potentially eternally difficient.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4448 on: November 26, 2010, 03:43:48 PM »
She couldn't fathom why accepting homosexuals in the church should be an issue.


Of course, "accepting homosexuals in the church" is not the issue.  Did you let her remain in her misconceptions?
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4449 on: November 26, 2010, 03:44:51 PM »
There is one reality Brian. That is what is real, and is true. or so many of us have tried to assert.

That reality is only known to us through our perceptions of it.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Ken Kimball

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4450 on: November 26, 2010, 04:21:56 PM »
I have heard this myth so many times it makes me puke.

Let's deal with reality, Brian.

1) the whole mantra of the "youth of today" are accepting of the ELCA changes is pure bunk. First, it doesn't take into account people change as they age. The hippies  became the yuppies. Many become more conservative, some become more liberal, but it is something that is not static, it evolves. To say what a person believes at 20 is what they will believe at 40 is foolish.

True, I became much more liberal. I wonder now and repent of how I was so judgmental in my younger years.

Quote
3) the LARGEST youth groups for Christians in our nation are not found in mainline churches. They are found in the non-denoms. Probably one reason is they teach from the bible there on a regular basis and don't substitute social action for real study. If that is the case, do ya think that maybe, just maybe, most CHRISTIAN youth don't agree with your high schooler? Why are Lutheran youth groups dying? What is the model used?  Mostly entertainment and throw in a few trips to do social action projects. That isn't youth ministry, by a long shot.

The largest groups of youth are found outside of the church. Part of the reason, for many, is that they see church as irrelevant to their lives. The church is busy arguing things that are of little to no interest to them -- like homosexual relationships. (After saying this a few years ago, I checked with my sons who are now 31 & 29 -- and homosexual relationships are non-issues with them; and they can't understand why it's such a big issue in the church.)

Right.  So the ELCA's loss of membership, congregations, and dollars should surely be overwhelmingly countered by the vast mass of such unjudgmental folks flooding into ELCA congregations and synods that embrace the outcome and direction of the 2009 CWA.   I'm sure that given such a pastor as yourself at your current congregation that your congregational membership and worship attendance must have doubled and tripled already.  Doubtless your numerical growth will soon be followed by benevolence to your synod and the ELCA that will more than make good the departure of La Casa and other congregations.   I'm sure you'll let us know how the outcome and direction of the 2009 CWA represent an effective mission strategy in reaching the nonjudgmental for Christ.   ::)

Ken

pr dtp

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4451 on: November 26, 2010, 04:35:10 PM »
I have heard this myth so many times it makes me puke.

Let's deal with reality, Brian.

1) the whole mantra of the "youth of today" are accepting of the ELCA changes is pure bunk. First, it doesn't take into account people change as they age. The hippies  became the yuppies. Many become more conservative, some become more liberal, but it is something that is not static, it evolves. To say what a person believes at 20 is what they will believe at 40 is foolish.

True, I became much more liberal. I wonder now and repent of how I was so judgmental in my younger years.

Quote
3) the LARGEST youth groups for Christians in our nation are not found in mainline churches. They are found in the non-denoms. Probably one reason is they teach from the bible there on a regular basis and don't substitute social action for real study. If that is the case, do ya think that maybe, just maybe, most CHRISTIAN youth don't agree with your high schooler? Why are Lutheran youth groups dying? What is the model used?  Mostly entertainment and throw in a few trips to do social action projects. That isn't youth ministry, by a long shot.

The largest groups of youth are found outside of the church. Part of the reason, for many, is that they see church as irrelevant to their lives. The church is busy arguing things that are of little to no interest to them -- like homosexual relationships. (After saying this a few years ago, I checked with my sons who are now 31 & 29 -- and homosexual relationships are non-issues with them; and they can't understand why it's such a big issue in the church.)

You are still just as judgmental - your target simply changed.

Now you can't stand people who actually find the warning God gave to watchman in Ezekiel still applicable today.

You do realize that there is a warning for the watchman as well as the people.  Do you really want the blame for their blood?

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4452 on: November 26, 2010, 04:47:41 PM »
And there has never been a rule preventing homosexual rostered leaders from marrying.

True, but if a homosexual rostered person married a same-gendered person where that is permitted, what then?


Presuming that by "a same-gendered person" you actually mean someone of the the same sex as the homosexual rostered leader, you describe a minister of the ELCA celebrating and seeking community blessing for being and acting incurvatis in se rather than preaching confession and repentance of the same.  A Christian Bishop would do what he could to prevent the continued proclamation of such a message, using his authority as acknowledged in the Lutheran Confessions -- which are supposed to have very high standing in the ELCA.
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4453 on: November 26, 2010, 04:49:00 PM »

Show me where the Bible ever says that same-gender couples cannot marry.

God's creation on the Man's partner.
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Scott6

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #4454 on: November 26, 2010, 05:16:39 PM »

How about Genesis and Matthew where one man and one woman are mentioned?

Doesn't say that one man and one man are excluded.

Just for the sake of new people to this forum, most of Brian's musings go unaddressed b/c we've been over them so many times before it's ridiculous.  Somehow, likely knowing how internet forums work, Brian continues to repeat what he's repeated with great regularity, no matter how many times before his arguments have been discredited.

In any case, one man can certainly be close friends with one man in a permanent relationship.  However, if homosexual behavior is involved, then such activity is sinful.  Scripture is clear that it is the behavior that matters w/o any regard for the quality of the relationship one way or the other.