Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817265 times)

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3930 on: November 08, 2010, 10:43:27 PM »
Steven writes:
There are pastors who are dually rostered in LCMS and ELCA. 

I comment:
Oh? Where? How can the LCMS tolerate that?

I know one personally.

How can the ELCA tolerate it, you mean?
  I wonder how Pastor McCain weighs in on this?

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3931 on: November 08, 2010, 10:44:00 PM »
I suspect there is an explanation. But I'd really like to see how it is that a pastor of the LCMS can serve an ELCA congregation. It's not a problem from "our side," but...

Ken Kimball

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3932 on: November 08, 2010, 11:02:12 PM »
I suspect there is an explanation. But I'd really like to see how it is that a pastor of the LCMS can serve an ELCA congregation. It's not a problem from "our side," but...

According to Secretary Swartling's rulings it is a problem for "our side."  More of the ELCA's make it up as you go and constitution and due process be damned. 

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3933 on: November 08, 2010, 11:07:06 PM »
Steven writes:
There are pastors who are dually rostered in LCMS and ELCA. 

I comment:
Oh? Where? How can the LCMS tolerate that?

I know one personally.

How can the ELCA tolerate it, you mean?
 Precisely.  If they tolerate LCMS pastors in their pews, why not dual rostering?  They cal LCMC and NALC "schismatic," but they caused the schism allowing a simple majority to make such a consequential and schismatic decision.

hillwilliam

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3934 on: November 08, 2010, 11:09:30 PM »
I suspect there is an explanation. But I'd really like to see how it is that a pastor of the LCMS can serve an ELCA congregation. It's not a problem from "our side," but...

If it isn't a problem then why are ELCA Pastors being suspended from their ordination (?) because their congregation voted to affiliate with the LCMC. Wouldn't you rather have an ELCA Pastor in a ELCA/LCMC congregation then a non-rostered Pastor?  ???

Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3935 on: November 09, 2010, 01:11:15 AM »
I suspect there is an explanation. But I'd really like to see how it is that a pastor of the LCMS can serve an ELCA congregation. It's not a problem from "our side," but...

Ah, but apparently it is. Or is it only a problem if the initials aren't LCMS but LCMC?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3936 on: November 09, 2010, 04:05:02 AM »
As usual, a simple question seems to feed the fire.
I did not ask about ELCA pastors who try to be rostered in two different church bodies, ELCA/LCMS, ELCA/LCMC, etc.
I do not think the ELCA has a "problem" if a pastor in the LCMS preaches in an ELCA congregation or (with the approval of the congregation and the synodical bishop) has some short-term pastoral agreement with that congregation.
The man would not be rostered in the ELCA.
My simple question is:
Since the LCMS has declared the ELCA heterodox and unbiblical and un-Lutheran, since the LCMS is clearly not in fellowship with the ELCA, how could the LCMS permit one of its pastors to serve an ELCA congregation?
The heated responses to my question, pouncing on perceived irregularities in ELCA policies and piling on irrelevant remarks about who caused the "schism" in the ELCA are neither helpful, nor to the point. And I do not think any of those responses came from people in the LCMS.
So I ask again: how do the LCMS participants here - ptmccain, Pastor Uttenreither, Pastor Weedon, Mr. Gehlhausen and others - explain the situation?

Maryland Brian

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3937 on: November 09, 2010, 07:06:49 AM »
As usual, a simple question seems to feed the fire.

I do not think the ELCA has a "problem" if a pastor in the LCMS preaches in an ELCA congregation or (with the approval of   LCMS.
So I ask again: how do the LCMS participants here - ptmccain, Pastor Uttenreither, Pastor Weedon, Mr. Gehlhausen and others - explain the situation?

  As usual, when unable to answer a question, change the subject and make it about someone else. 

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3938 on: November 09, 2010, 07:13:36 AM »
Here's how I have experienced an LCMS pastor serving an ELCA congregation.  It happened out in my area.  The LCMS pastor was retired, but still on our LCMS roster.  He had some training with intentional interim ministry.  The ELCA congregation was vacant, had been for 'a while' (don't know how long), and they wanted some stability in their preaching and administration of the Sacraments.  The LCMS pastor said to me that the congregation "pleaded" with him to come and help them.  They wanted someone they could count on to be there, provide pastoral care, get to know them and minister to them.  This retired LCMS pastor had been in this area a long time and the ELCA and LCMS clergy meet monthly for discussion, education, and support.  He agreed to help out.  And the bishop of the ELCA synod agreed to that arrangement.

I told my colleague that I found it odd and wondered how something like this could take place.  He kept referring back to their pleading for help and the fact that he knew this congregation, actually lived fairly close by and knew a fair number of members there.  And, I don't mean this to be mean, but he said that the people appreciated his work, in these words, "You don't preach on causes, and we like that."

I still find it odd, but I don't believe the arrangement was entered into lightly.  And it didn't last forever.  The others in our circuit knew and some shared my view and some thought it was a more okay thing.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3939 on: November 09, 2010, 07:43:25 AM »
..and here is an interesting tidbit.  The ELCA seems happy to employ retired LCMS pastors to serve supply and vacancy in certain areas of the U.S.  My father in law and his friend and colleague in another state (which shall not be named, but my witness is true and trustworthy) have served ELCA congregations recently and they remain rostered in the LCMS.


Ah, now come on, Pr. Scheuller, you know better than to quote some anonymous source, because your claims that they are true and trustworthy will never be accepted by a certain segment in here!

Coach-Rev, STS

Team Hesse

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3940 on: November 09, 2010, 08:04:23 AM »

My simple question is:
Since the LCMS has declared the ELCA heterodox and unbiblical and un-Lutheran, since the LCMS is clearly not in fellowship with the ELCA, how could the LCMS permit one of its pastors to serve an ELCA congregation?

So I ask again: how do the LCMS participants here - ptmccain, Pastor Uttenreither, Pastor Weedon, Mr. Gehlhausen and others - explain the situation?

No longer LCMS because I was called by God to serve sinners elsewhere, many of my LCMS brothers recognize the Lord works in mysterious ways sometimes fraying the edges of man-made ecclesial boundaries. I can wish things were less muddy, but sinners need to be served and the Lord's call is His call. The real question in all of this is "Who is running the show and what is He up to?

Lou

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3941 on: November 09, 2010, 08:10:23 AM »
Jeremy Loesch reports a situation where an LCMS pastor served an ELCA congregation. Good. But I am just pointing out that to do so the LCMS pastor is (I believe) in violation of the policies and teachings of his church body. That's all.

And Pastor Hesse writes:
...many of my LCMS brothers recognize the Lord works in mysterious ways sometimes fraying the edges of man-made ecclesial boundaries....
I comment:
Me, too. That's why I do not have a problem with the ELCA's communion practices, with celebrating the sacrament on a cruise ship or with a travel group and welcoming all, or having my Roman Catholic friends invite me to commune when I am in their churches.

Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3942 on: November 09, 2010, 08:15:28 AM »
No longer LCMS because I was called by God to serve sinners elsewhere, many of my LCMS brothers recognize the Lord works in mysterious ways sometimes fraying the edges of man-made ecclesial boundaries. I can wish things were less muddy, but sinners need to be served and the Lord's call is His call. The real question in all of this is "Who is running the show and what is He up to?

Lou

I believe I heard Joliet Jake say that same thing, in response to the last known address of Blue Lou and Bones Malone written on the inside of a cigarette package  ;D

Team Hesse

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3943 on: November 09, 2010, 08:19:31 AM »
or having my Roman Catholic friends invite me to commune when I am in their churches.

Which violates their polity if I'm not mistaken. You seemed to have missed the importance of "call" in my post.

Lou

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3944 on: November 09, 2010, 08:22:48 AM »
Yep, "polity," often part of those "man-made ecclesial boundaries" frayed, you say, in mysterious ways by the Lord. For which, deo gratias.