Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817211 times)

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3915 on: November 08, 2010, 05:33:09 PM »
Or, since we are very far from the actual situation, the bishop removed the pastors for other valid reasons. We don't know the whole story and here we are reading - as usual - only one side.
Yes, we are reading only one side - the Synod's side.  If you read the material posted in the links, they include all of the correspondence which the synod has sent to the congregation giving the reasons for the actions that are taken.  It is the synod's arguments and reasons that are presented.  One-sided, but clear enough to fill in the other side - the congregation's.

Marshall Hahn

hillwilliam

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3916 on: November 08, 2010, 05:38:07 PM »
someone writes:
I have also worked with psychiatrists and found them to be uniformly looney tunes.

I comment:
Chalk up another profession arrogantly dismissed as useless by the know-it-alls on this discussion board. Must be a full moon out tonight.

Now come on Charles, you know that isn't what I said. As you will find by reading the quote above, I was making an observation about psychiatrists that I had personally worked with. Their behavior did not seem to fall within the spectrum of what is generally considered rational. That does not constitute a blanket dismissal of the usefulness of their profession. Now if you have information about the individuals I was referring to please feel free to comment.

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3917 on: November 08, 2010, 06:05:09 PM »

1.  The bishop strenuously argues that the church's attempt to join the LCMC is completely invalid - it is neither legal nor efficacious.

Nope. The bishop argues that they attempt to leave the ELCA failed. Check the LCMC directory of congregations. They have joined LCMC.

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2.  The bishop strenuously then argues that the pastors are being removed because the church left the ELCA to join the LCMC.

Nope. They are being removed because the congregation joined the LCMC (even though they did not leave the ELCA).

Pastor Stoffregen, you are hopelessly wrong - irredeemably wrong - indisputably wrong.  Please stop before you embarrass yourself any further.  You can read the correspondence between the synod and the congregation if you go to this link:
http://globegazette.com/pdf_ab27ad90-e960-11df-a6d1-001cc4c03286.html and download the pdf file indicated.  When you do, you will read first, from the congregation, the letter sent to the bishop reporting on the outcome of the 2nd vote taken on August 22.  The congregation's letter reports:
"Therefore, the second vote failed."

The bishop replies, in the next letter that appears:
"I have recieved the official report of your August 22, 2010 congregational meeting regarding Zion's affiliation with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).  I am grateful for your decision to remain a part of the witness and service of the ELCA."

So, there is no dispute concerning the validity nor the outcome of the 2nd vote to leave the ELCA.

The dispute is over the congregation's subsequent vote to join the LCMC, which took place on September 12.  There is no official notice sent to the bishop about this vote, but we have the bishop's response:
"If the news report is accurate, the votes that Zion took at a congregational meeting on Sunday, September 12, 2010 have created a constitutional crisis for Zion...  I ask that you recognize the violations that have taken place and choose not to implement the resolutions which are, in fact void since they violate your constitution."

The bishop states here that they did NOT join the LCMC - that their vote is void.  Which is what numerous others have been trying to get across to you for some time.

Marshall Hahn

Chuck

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3918 on: November 08, 2010, 06:06:05 PM »
(If a pastor is vested in the pension plan can they still take away his/her pension?)

The ELCA plan is a defined contributions plan which means there is no vesting and any contributions made to the plan belong to the plan member. Should a plan member leave the ELCA, the contributions can be left with the BOP and continue to grow (subject to the market), withdrawn or rolled over into another qualified plan (subject to IRS regulations).
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. óGeorge Bernard Shaw

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3919 on: November 08, 2010, 06:58:10 PM »

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.

Show me where the ELCA says that dual membership of a congregation is not possible. It's not hard to find the rule against against rostered folks, but I've looked and there's nothing I can find that prohibits dual membership of a congregation.

You may have read slowly and aloud, but still you do not appear to be comprehending.

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3920 on: November 08, 2010, 07:00:03 PM »

Anyway, I understand Richard's point, but consider myself and many fellow brothers and sisters in the ministry in the ELCA feel a lot like Hosea right now.  >:(

Well described, Kevin; quite well described.

Christe eleison, Steven+
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3921 on: November 08, 2010, 07:03:38 PM »
OOPS! I'm still trying to figure out how to use this blog.  I saw the quote button and figured out how to use it after I did my previous post.  Sorry.

Don't worry, Kevin.  One of top posters refuses to learn how to use it.

Pax, Steven+
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Coach-Rev

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3922 on: November 08, 2010, 07:05:51 PM »
ptmccain, whose postings sometimes contain their own form of smarmy, belittling language, can make fun of my complaint if he wishes to do so. Actually, I'm not surprised that he does, for his sensitivity level has been challenged by a number of participants here.
But my complaint stands, as does my invitation to evaluate the character of the name-caller.

I invite the moderators to also look at your own language, Charles, which is no better than that which you complain of. 

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3923 on: November 08, 2010, 07:21:26 PM »
Let me see if I have this straight.  The governing documents of the ELCA prohibit dual rostering of pastors.

Yes.  Though thus far this provision has been enforced only with some pastors associated with LCMC (and, apparently, with NALC).  There are pastors who are dually rostered in LCMS and ELCA.  There are pastors dually rostered with ELCA and ELM.  Such provisions have not been enforced by ELCA Bishops.  In fact such dual resterings have been accepted, and even encouraged, by some ELCA bishops.

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The governing documents of the ELCA do not prohibit the dual rostering of congregations.  

Not explicitly.  However, that has recently become the official interpretation, though at one time the official interpretation was otherwise.

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If a rostered ELCA pastor serves a dual rostered congregation he may or must (which?) be considered automatically dual rostered and therefor subject to summary discipline and expulsion from the ELCA with serious implications for health insurance and pension.  (If a pastor is vested in the pension plan can they still take away his/her pension?)

Former ELCA congregations may enroll their employees in the ELCA health and pension plans, so in the situations we are describing, coverage need not lapse.  Pension contributions and earnings, as Chuck said, belong to the individual person.

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Can a dual rostered ELCA/? congregation be served by an ELCA pastor - or any pastor at all without being subject to expulsion or other penalties and actions by the Bishop?

That is now a matter of uncertainty.  Precedents of the first 20 years of the ELCA's history are being set aside by fiat.

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Where does that leave those people?

Hanging.

Kyrie eleison, Steven+
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Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3924 on: November 08, 2010, 07:42:39 PM »
Let me see if I have this straight.  The governing documents of the ELCA prohibit dual rostering of pastors.

Yes.  Though thus far this provision has been enforced only with some pastors associated with LCMC (and, apparently, with NALC).  There are pastors who are dually rostered in LCMS and ELCA.  There are pastors dually rostered with ELCA and ELM.  Such provisions have not been enforced by ELCA Bishops.  In fact such dual resterings have been accepted, and even encouraged, by some ELCA bishops.

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The governing documents of the ELCA do not prohibit the dual rostering of congregations.  

Not explicitly.  However, that has recently become the official interpretation, though at one time the official interpretation was otherwise.

Quote
If a rostered ELCA pastor serves a dual rostered congregation he may or must (which?) be considered automatically dual rostered and therefor subject to summary discipline and expulsion from the ELCA with serious implications for health insurance and pension.  (If a pastor is vested in the pension plan can they still take away his/her pension?)

Former ELCA congregations may enroll their employees in the ELCA health and pension plans, so in the situations we are describing, coverage need not lapse.  Pension contributions and earnings, as Chuck said, belong to the individual person.

Quote
Can a dual rostered ELCA/? congregation be served by an ELCA pastor - or any pastor at all without being subject to expulsion or other penalties and actions by the Bishop?

That is now a matter of uncertainty.  Precedents of the first 20 years of the ELCA's history are being set aside by fiat.

Quote
Where does that leave those people?

Hanging.

Kyrie eleison, Steven+

..and here is an interesting tidbit.  The ELCA seems happy to employ retired LCMS pastors to serve supply and vacancy in certain areas of the U.S.  My father in law and his friend and colleague in another state (which shall not be named, but my witness is true and trustworthy) have served ELCA congregations recently and they remain rostered in the LCMS.

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3925 on: November 08, 2010, 07:44:15 PM »
Steven writes:
There are pastors who are dually rostered in LCMS and ELCA. 

I comment:
Oh? Where? How can the LCMS tolerate that?

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3926 on: November 08, 2010, 09:22:40 PM »

The ELCA seems happy to employ retired LCMS pastors to serve supply and vacancy in certain areas of the U.S.  My father in law and his friend and colleague in another state (which shall not be named, but my witness is true and trustworthy) have served ELCA congregations recently and they remain rostered in the LCMS.

It was about a dozen years ago that Mom told me the Synod had finally gotten around to appointing an Interim Pastor for my home congregation (they'd been been left to their own devices for several months at that point). 

"Who is it?" I asked thinking I might recognize the name.  Though I'd only been gone from home synod a few years at that point, by then I was already recognizing very few names among the serving pastors.  (Most of those I'd known had, uh, departed to other synods.)  I immediately recognized the name, though, a pastor I'd worked with some during my seminary Cross Cultural Experience in what was then called South-Central LA..

"Are you sure?" I asked. "He's a Missouri Synod pastor."  And under call, though not to a congregation.

"Ah," she replied, "that explains his preaching."  Mom had been a Missouri Synod Lutheran until joining our California Synod (ULCA) congregation some 35-40 years earlier when she was with child with me.

He served as part-time Interim for several months until a new pastor was called.

Pax, Steven+
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Richard Johnson

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3927 on: November 08, 2010, 10:18:15 PM »
Steven writes:
There are pastors who are dually rostered in LCMS and ELCA. 

I comment:
Oh? Where? How can the LCMS tolerate that?

I know one personally.

How can the ELCA tolerate it, you mean?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3928 on: November 08, 2010, 10:35:05 PM »
Does St. Louis know about this? And what do our LCMS folks here, ptmccain, Pastor Uttenreither, Pastor Weedon et al. have to say about one of their men serving one of our congregations?

olarmy02

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3929 on: November 08, 2010, 10:39:06 PM »
Does St. Louis know about this? And what do our LCMS folks here, ptmccain, Pastor Uttenreither, Pastor Weedon et al. have to say about one of their men serving one of our congregations?

Pastor Austin do you really want to serve up that softball right over the plate?
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
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