Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 817240 times)

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3900 on: November 08, 2010, 04:39:55 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

Hey, if you and I led it, then we could keep the money! :) I might even consider spending it at CPH.
How about sending ALL FOUR of you to noted counselor R. Lee Ermey? I'd pay to watch...... ;D
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Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3901 on: November 08, 2010, 04:40:24 PM »
OOPS! I'm still trying to figure out how to use this blog.  I saw the quote button and figured out how to use it after I did my previous post.  Sorry.

Steverem

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3902 on: November 08, 2010, 04:47:21 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

Hey, if you and I led it, then we could keep the money! :) I might even consider spending it at CPH.

Brian and Paul counseling George and Charles?  Now THAT would be a reality show I would watch!

pr dtp

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3903 on: November 08, 2010, 04:50:33 PM »
Should the ALPB community take up a collection to send Charles and George to couples therapy?

Hey, if you and I led it, then we could keep the money! :) I might even consider spending it at CPH.

Let's see - Rev Mcain and Rev. Stoffregen team counseling Mr Erdner and Rev. Austin.

How about it is hosted in a MMA facility and we sell it on pay per view?

Especially if we leave them in there until they can commune together?


(Added feature - they aren't allowed to bring any electronics into the facility...)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 04:54:22 PM by justified and sinner »

Dadoo

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3904 on: November 08, 2010, 04:50:57 PM »


I don't think that the issue was whether the congregation had left the ELCA, but whether the pastors were serving an LCMC congregation, whether they were members of another church body. The bishop concluded that they were.

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.

Show me where the ELCA says that dual membership of a congregation is not possible. It's not hard to find the rule against against rostered folks, but I've looked and there's nothing I can find that prohibits dual membership of a congregation.

According to the secretary of the ELCA dual rostering of congregations is precluded by the constitution of the ELCA. In matters of constitutional interpretation the secretary has the final word - therefore it is precluded in the ELCA. Read it here: http://www.neiasynod.org/synod_news/pdf/DDS%20Dual%20Rostering%20mmo%20to%20Bps%20and%20Vps%201-19-10.pdf
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3905 on: November 08, 2010, 04:57:44 PM »
Channeling George Orwell, are you? If I am married, and I decide to marry someone else without benefit of divorce, to which spouse am I legally married?

Okay, hi everyone, I'm kind of new here.  I was going to post about the LDS polygamists, but Brian beat me to it.  Howabout not being aware that I needed to sign a pre-nup. 

Of course, knowing how very seldom it is that pastors serve just one church for 20+ years (I say seldom, not never), the marriage analogy doesn't quite work for me.  Anyway, I understand Richard's point, but consider myself and many fellow brothers and sisters in the ministry in the ELCA feel a lot like Hosea right now.  >:(
...by "church" of course, I mean "congregation."

Mike Bennett

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3906 on: November 08, 2010, 05:00:55 PM »
OOPS! I'm still trying to figure out how to use this blog.  I saw the quote button and figured out how to use it after I did my previous post.  Sorry.

That's all right.  Austin has been posting here since Neuhaus was Lutheran, and he claims the quote button is impossible, treacherous, and unreliable.  Only took you two postings to figure it out.  You must be very quick!  :o

Mike Bennett
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James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3907 on: November 08, 2010, 05:01:05 PM »


I don't think that the issue was whether the congregation had left the ELCA, but whether the pastors were serving an LCMC congregation, whether they were members of another church body. The bishop concluded that they were.

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.

Show me where the ELCA says that dual membership of a congregation is not possible. It's not hard to find the rule against against rostered folks, but I've looked and there's nothing I can find that prohibits dual membership of a congregation.

According to the secretary of the ELCA dual rostering of congregations is precluded by the constitution of the ELCA. In matters of constitutional interpretation the secretary has the final word - therefore it is precluded in the ELCA. Read it here: http://www.neiasynod.org/synod_news/pdf/DDS%20Dual%20Rostering%20mmo%20to%20Bps%20and%20Vps%201-19-10.pdf

I actually think that the secretary is demonstrably wrong regarding the dual-rostering of congregations.  

I understand the textual argument under which the secretary has the "final word" regarding constitutional interpretation.  But can the text really mean that?  If it does, it means that he is empowered to interpret the ELCA's confession of faith, which is enshrined in the constitution.  In other words, a single elected official -- a lawyer -- has the authority to define what we are to believe, teach, and confess.

Scott6

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3908 on: November 08, 2010, 05:01:52 PM »


I don't think that the issue was whether the congregation had left the ELCA, but whether the pastors were serving an LCMC congregation, whether they were members of another church body. The bishop concluded that they were.

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.

Show me where the ELCA says that dual membership of a congregation is not possible. It's not hard to find the rule against against rostered folks, but I've looked and there's nothing I can find that prohibits dual membership of a congregation.

According to the secretary of the ELCA dual rostering of congregations is precluded by the constitution of the ELCA. In matters of constitutional interpretation the secretary has the final word - therefore it is precluded in the ELCA. Read it here: http://www.neiasynod.org/synod_news/pdf/DDS%20Dual%20Rostering%20mmo%20to%20Bps%20and%20Vps%201-19-10.pdf

I actually think that the secretary is demonstrably wrong regarding the dual-rostering of congregations.  

I understand the textual argument under which the secretary has the "final word" regarding constitutional interpretation.  But can the text really mean that?  If it does, it means that he is empowered to interpret the ELCA's confession of faith, which is enshrined in the constitution.  In other words, a single elected official -- a lawyer -- has the authority to define what we are to believe, teach, and confess.

His opinion can be appealed to the church council, no?

James_Gale

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3909 on: November 08, 2010, 05:09:35 PM »
Ah, but, I believe it was Richard, who showed me the error of my ways with V&E and D&G. The ELCA Constitution/Bylaws empowers the Church Council to create the disciplinary documents.

Your penchant for pulling statements like this out of -- uh -- very thin air is amazing indeed.

What "disciplinary documents" are you talking about?  And what constitutional provision authorizes it?

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3910 on: November 08, 2010, 05:11:30 PM »
Let's see - Rev Mcain and Rev. Stoffregen team counseling Mr Erdner and Rev. Austin.

How about it is hosted in a MMA facility and we sell it on pay per view?

Especially if we leave them in there until they can commune together?



If we had to wait that long, then those of us who believe that the Great Deceiver actually exists would need to purchase long underwear for him, as he would need them. However, some from that list would complain about even mentioning the Great Deceiver by name.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 06:01:45 PM by George Erdner »

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3911 on: November 08, 2010, 05:17:59 PM »
Just because a majority of people disagree with an interpretation of a law, doesn't make it a wrong interpretation. Their three replacements could make exactly the same decision.
The reason the judges were not retained was not because a majority disagreed with an interpretation they gave of a law.  It was because they were judged to have overstepped their authority in establishing a definition of marriage by judicial fiat which contradicted the definition contained within the law.  Only if "marriage" is defined generically as the union of two people could the justices make a case for discrimination.  They admitted in the opinion they wrote that this new definition would be "unrecognizable" to the framers of Iowa's constitution, but did it anyway.  Sound familiar?  It does to me.

Marshall Hahn

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3912 on: November 08, 2010, 05:18:25 PM »


I don't think that the issue was whether the congregation had left the ELCA, but whether the pastors were serving an LCMC congregation, whether they were members of another church body. The bishop concluded that they were.

Brian, please read slowly aloud: IF THE BISHOP CLAIMS THAT THE CONGREGATION IS STILL AN ELCA CONGREGATION, AND THE ELCA CLAIMS THAT DUAL MEMBERSHIP OF A CONGREGATION IS NOT POSSIBLE, THEN THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT THE PASTORS OF THAT CONGREGATION ARE MEMBERS OF AND SERVING AN ELCA CONGREGATION. It's just not that hard.

Show me where the ELCA says that dual membership of a congregation is not possible. It's not hard to find the rule against against rostered folks, but I've looked and there's nothing I can find that prohibits dual membership of a congregation.

According to the secretary of the ELCA dual rostering of congregations is precluded by the constitution of the ELCA. In matters of constitutional interpretation the secretary has the final word - therefore it is precluded in the ELCA. Read it here: http://www.neiasynod.org/synod_news/pdf/DDS%20Dual%20Rostering%20mmo%20to%20Bps%20and%20Vps%201-19-10.pdf

I actually think that the secretary is demonstrably wrong regarding the dual-rostering of congregations.  

I understand the textual argument under which the secretary has the "final word" regarding constitutional interpretation.  But can the text really mean that?  If it does, it means that he is empowered to interpret the ELCA's confession of faith, which is enshrined in the constitution.  In other words, a single elected official -- a lawyer -- has the authority to define what we are to believe, teach, and confess.

He seems to admit that the bylaws do not have an article about the dual rostering of congregations. He seems to refer to the non-existent bylaw when he mentions 8.71.15.d. It doesn't exist! His argument is that it isn't needed. Instead, the constitution presents the way a congregation can be dually rostered. I would argue that just as a statement is given to prohibit the dual rostering of clergy, a parallel one should be given for congregations if they are to be prohibited, except in the limited exceptions mentioned in the bylaws.

While there may not have been dual rostered congregations in the ELCA prior to 1999, there were dual rostered ALC/LCMS congregations prior to 1987. The LCMS did away with them. The two ALC/LCMS congregations that remain are actually two different congregations with different memberships, but sharing one building and one pastor.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3913 on: November 08, 2010, 05:24:02 PM »
Ah, but, I believe it was Richard, who showed me the error of my ways with V&E and D&G. The ELCA Constitution/Bylaws empowers the Church Council to create the disciplinary documents.

Your penchant for pulling statements like this out of -- uh -- very thin air is amazing indeed.

What "disciplinary documents" are you talking about?  And what constitutional provision authorizes it?

20.70. DEFINITIONS AND GUIDELINES
20.71.11. The Committee on Appeals shall establish definitions and guidelines, subject to approval by the Church Council, to enable clear and uniform application of the grounds for discipline in each of the above categories.
20.71.12. The Committee on Appeals shall present to the Church Council for consideration and recommendation a process and definitions, as required in bylaw 20.71.11.


The two documents that have been approved by the Church Council are Definition and Guidelines for Discipline and Vision and Expectations.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #3914 on: November 08, 2010, 05:30:44 PM »
Let me see if I have this straight.  The governing documents of the ELCA prohibit dual rostering of pastors.  The governing documents of the ELCA do not prohibit the dual rostering of congregations.  If a rostered ELCA pastor serves a dual rostered congregation he may or must (which?) be considered automatically dual rostered and therefor subject to summary discipline and expulsion from the ELCA with serious implications for health insurance and pension.  (If a pastor is vested in the pension plan can they still take away his/her pension?)  Can a dual rostered ELCA/? congregation be served by an ELCA pastor - or any pastor at all without being subject to expulsion or other penalties and actions by the Bishop?  Where does that leave those people?

Dan
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