Author Topic: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.  (Read 980159 times)

LutherMan

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2580 on: August 19, 2010, 07:49:06 PM »

And they are more willing to go after a worship service (or a congregation) in the ELCA rather than attack one of their own.
Once the pagan witches endorse our liturgy, the attack begins.  I will gladly lead the charge.

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2581 on: August 19, 2010, 09:23:03 PM »
Now we are supposed to compare the hypothetical actions of some hypothetical LCMS congregation led by some hypothetical minister with a service officially sanctioned by the Sierra Pacific Synod presided over by the Sierra Pacific Synod Bishop, in which two other sitting ELCA bishops participated?

The congregation and minister are not hypothetical. Their names have been withheld to protect the guilty.
It still has nothing to do with the liturgy conducted in California by an ELCA synod.
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1) The actions you offer here are not comparable - you might ask our friends from the LCMS if they would consider offering open communion  - or expressing an opinion about lodges - to be equally as troubling as offering a prayer to a goddess or treating the Lord's Prayer as a vehicle for proselytizing for one's pet agenda or replacing the Trinitarian benediction with a modalistic trio of adjectives.  I certainly do not consider these things to be comparable.

I'm suggesting that the actions of one minister or one congregation or even a few ministers and congregations cannot be used to judge the whole denomination. I'd even expand that to say that the actions of one bishop do not make it a norm for the whole ELCA. Congregations and ministers, synods and bishops, have some level of autonomy in the ELCA.
This service WAS done for the whole denomination.  The BISHOP presided at this service.  In the congregations I serve, when it comes to worship, the buck stops with me.  Even if I do not choose every hymn or preach every sermon or give every children's sermon or set up every youth service - I am responsible for what is taught and worshipped at each service.  This was a service of the SYNOD, acting on behalf of the ELCA.  Of course, you know that.  Your pretense notwithstanding.
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2) This "one liturgy" is not a rogue liturgy used by a rogue congregation - it was an official worship service of the Sierra Pacific Synod,
presided over by the bishop of the Sierra Pacific Synod, with two other sitting ELCA bishops participating.  I guess I said that above.  But you so far have refused to address these facts.

I would say that it is a rogue liturgy, prepared by the Revs. Jeff Johnson and Sharon Stalkfleet. Both were received into the ELCA at this service. So, technically, they were not ELCA pastors when preparing this liturgy.

I can't say if Bishop Holmerud oversaw the creation of this liturgy. I've worked with bishops who wanted final approval on every thing in a synod worship service before it was printed; and worked with some who wanted no part of the planning -- just tell them what they are supposed to read before the service begins. While I know Bishop Mark, I don't know him well enough to guess whether he would approve, be neutral, or oppose this type of liturgy. (My hunch is that he wouldn't oppose it -- because he didn't.)
It really does not matter how closely Bishop Holmerud oversaw the creation of this service.  As the presiding minister in the service, he has the primary responsibility to guard against the heresy and paganism that infused this worship liturgy.  And I have heard for years the argument, "That will never affect us out here".  I did not buy it when I first heard it, and I do not buy it now.
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3) I am not talking about those who "attended" this service - but the synod which endorsed, sponsored, and conducted it; the bishop who presided at it; the other bishops who participated in it; and the ELCA, which by implication supported it.  Those who attended the service ought to privately repent to God of their participation in it, to be sure, but that is not what I am talking about.

What makes you sure that the synod "endorsed, sponsored, and conducted it"? It is clear to me that the synod had no part in planning the liturgy. That was done by two of the received clergy. I'm pretty sure that the synod practiced no oversight with the planning, because that has not been that synod's style in the past.

 For the same reason that I know that the synod endorses, sponsors, and conducts the worship services at the synod assembly.  Who planned it is beside the point.  It is not the personal statement of two or three people exercising their creative talents to produce something for their own pleasure.  This is a worship service of the SYNOD which is receiving these people onto the roster of the church.  I know that it is difficult for most people in our day to understand that there is anything more important than my own whims and desires, and I have no doubt that such rampant individualism permeates the decision-making of the Sierra Pacific Synod, but that is at the root of the problem, not an excuse for what took place at this service.
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4) This was a VERY public service - as public as the proponents could possibly make it.  And the apologies for it ought to be just as public and widely disseminated.  Anything less will not do.

Yes it was. There is also a theory that public combat just keeps the issue in the public eye longer than if one just ignores it or responds privately. While I'm not saying that the worship planners are antagonists in the church, but a book by that title recommends that antagonists not be confronted in public, because that gives them more credence than they deserve.

So you are not saying what you are saying?  You also are not answering what I said.  This was a VERY public service and any apologies for it ought to be just as public.  When someone is slandered in a public venue, the only just and proper thing to do is to offer a public apology.
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To repeat two issues I've said before. First: Each synod and bishop has some autonomy in our church. Those planning and conducting this service believe that it was fitting for that synod and even more particularly, for the style of worship that is already taking place in the much of the bay area. Secondly: I suspect that the liturgies with the Rite of Reception in Minneapolis and Chicago areas will be different, because they are different synods with different bishops and different styles of worship.

To add one issue that I have not mentioned:  I gave copies of the more egregious portions of this service to the Task Force in our churches which is tasked with guiding our parish in its discernment with our relationship with the ELCA.  They were appalled.  I did not hear any of them say that this does not matter.  They understood that this affects us - here and now.  And they want nothing to do with it.

Marshall Hahn

frluther1517

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2582 on: August 19, 2010, 09:56:26 PM »
Close(d) v. Open communion - a matter of practice, and in my opinion, adiaphora.

Christ v. Paganism - not so much.

What you label paganism, others consider progressive Christianity -- and within the parameters of the Christian faith.

Neither you nor I have been given the authority to make that determination.

It is paganism and if progressive Christianity = pagan rituals/prayers then progressive Christianity is outside the bonds of the Creeds, the Confessions, and the Christian faith.  

I don't make that judgment, the Creeds, the Confessions, and the Holy Scriptures do, but if you have someone in mind who can make that determination then let me know I'd gladly take the matter up with him/her/it/them whoever....  I think Papa Bene might have next Thursday open....   ;D ;)

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2583 on: August 19, 2010, 10:09:55 PM »
Close(d) v. Open communion - a matter of practice, and in my opinion, adiaphora.

Christ v. Paganism - not so much.

What you label paganism, others consider progressive Christianity -- and within the parameters of the Christian faith.

Neither you nor I have been given the authority to make that determination.

That's a true statement. Pagans consider that service progressive Christianity. Pagan Christians consider that a proper Christian service. Lutheran Christians do not.

You want a litmus test to determine if someone is a Lutheran Christian or a Pagan Christian? Ask them whether or not they approve of that pagan liturgy.

And just pray tell how much authority is needed to make that call? Given that none of us has the power to enforce any sort of action to be taken on anyone as a result of our individual determinations, save making a personal decision to not associate or engage in fellowship with those people other then to attempt to persuade them of their error, what kind of badge or license must we carry to be able to call a spade a spade when we clearly see one?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 12:23:41 AM by George Erdner »

SmithL

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2584 on: August 20, 2010, 10:34:47 AM »
This doesn't happen often:

Zion Lutheran Church plans ceremony as it joins Missouri Synod
Victoria Advocate: http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/aug/19/jp_lutheran_082110_107739/

olarmy02

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2585 on: August 20, 2010, 11:39:45 AM »
This doesn't happen often:

Zion Lutheran Church plans ceremony as it joins Missouri Synod
Victoria Advocate: http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/aug/19/jp_lutheran_082110_107739/

Less than 40miles from my birthplace, Yoakum, Texas which means about 47 miles to the Spoetzel Brewery in Shiner. ;D  Holy Cross LC Yoakum is now a LCMC congregation.  I wonder how many others out there are like Zion Mission Valley, headed to MO?  Are there only a few so we don't hear about them or do they just keep it 'close to the vest'?
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse

George Erdner

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2586 on: August 20, 2010, 12:11:20 PM »
This doesn't happen often:

Zion Lutheran Church plans ceremony as it joins Missouri Synod
Victoria Advocate: http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/aug/19/jp_lutheran_082110_107739/

Less than 40miles from my birthplace, Yoakum, Texas which means about 47 miles to the Spoetzel Brewery in Shiner. ;D  Holy Cross LC Yoakum is now a LCMC congregation.  I wonder how many others out there are like Zion Mission Valley, headed to MO?  Are there only a few so we don't hear about them or do they just keep it 'close to the vest'?

Despite Captain Thin's and Dave Barnhart's blogs, there is really no authoritative central clearing house for such information on the web. The LCMC website is reasonably good about adding new congregations, though they do it in batches and don't identify which are transfers from the ELCA and which are new start-ups of ELCA refugees. The LC-MS doesn't seem to have a list of new congregations being added. All I could find on the LC-MS website is a list of all congregations, but when a new one is added it slips into place in alphabetical order with no indication of when it joined.

It appears that neither the ELCA, the LCMC, the LC-MS, nor any other organization sees merit in providing up-to-date, real time information on the movement of congregations between denominations. Perhaps that is understandable.

pbnorth3

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2587 on: August 20, 2010, 12:55:23 PM »
This doesn't happen often:

Zion Lutheran Church plans ceremony as it joins Missouri Synod
Victoria Advocate: http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/aug/19/jp_lutheran_082110_107739/

Less than 40miles from my birthplace, Yoakum, Texas which means about 47 miles to the Spoetzel Brewery in Shiner. ;D  Holy Cross LC Yoakum is now a LCMC congregation.  I wonder how many others out there are like Zion Mission Valley, headed to MO?  Are there only a few so we don't hear about them or do they just keep it 'close to the vest'?

Despite Captain Thin's and Dave Barnhart's blogs, there is really no authoritative central clearing house for such information on the web. The LCMC website is reasonably good about adding new congregations, though they do it in batches and don't identify which are transfers from the ELCA and which are new start-ups of ELCA refugees. The LC-MS doesn't seem to have a list of new congregations being added. All I could find on the LC-MS website is a list of all congregations, but when a new one is added it slips into place in alphabetical order with no indication of when it joined.

It appears that neither the ELCA, the LCMC, the LC-MS, nor any other organization sees merit in providing up-to-date, real time information on the movement of congregations between denominations. Perhaps that is understandable.

That would be true in the AFLC as well. Congregations come and they get placed on the roster without comment about whether they are new starts or congregations moving into the association. This is fairly common practice. That is why the other blogs are probably more helpful in seeking out congregations that are actually on the way out.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Bergs

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2588 on: August 20, 2010, 02:12:26 PM »
West Immanuel Lutheran Church in Osceola, Wisconsin, has scheduled a vote for September 26, 2010.

From their bulletin:
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* CONGREGATION VOTING MEETING

The Church Council decided at their meeting on 7/20/2010, by an 8 to 6 vote, to conduct a congregational vote regarding separating from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. This vote will be held on September 26, 2010 in the Sanctuary immediately after the second service.

This will be the first of two required votes. The yes or no decision needs to pass by a 2/3 majority. A second vote may be taken 90 days later if it passes the first vote by the 2/3 majority.

The framework (procedure) for this vote is being evaluated and formulated currently. Once all the details and procedures have been established, we will publish that information. The Church Council will complete the details at their August 17th meeting

Please keep them in your prayers.

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2589 on: August 20, 2010, 03:29:30 PM »
.... I wonder how many others out there are ... headed to MO?  Are there only a few so we don't hear about them or do they just keep it 'close to the vest'?

Well they don't want the word to get out about the Hell week initiation, and Pastoral Cleansing thingie...  ;D

Seriously there is dialog. I am aware of a circuit that is getting together with ELCA etc. pastors in that circuit next week. Many conservative congregations in friendly circuit areas will find a warm welcome in LCMS. And if they are nervous, they can join us and still fellowship with those good brothers and sisters.

LCMC/NALC will have to absorb the bulk of those leaving simply because someone has to shake out the many flavors. But pastors and congregations are actively engaging LCMS and others. How did I put it? "at least two." :)

TV
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 03:34:09 PM by TVerinus »
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Kurt Weinelt

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2590 on: August 20, 2010, 06:04:41 PM »
This doesn't happen often:
Zion Lutheran Church plans ceremony as it joins Missouri Synod
Victoria Advocate: http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/aug/19/jp_lutheran_082110_107739/

In the article it mentions that the council president is a woman. How will this be received in the LCMS? I ask this as an ELCA exile who has been a long-term visitor (nine months) to a wonderful LCMS congregation. I see that within my own family, the LCMS views on the role of women in the church are a stumbling block for many ELCA exiles who otherwise might join an LCMS congregation.
Kurt
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 06:06:33 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
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SmithL

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2591 on: August 20, 2010, 07:02:40 PM »
In the article it mentions that the council president is a woman. How will this be received in the LCMS? I ask this as an ELCA exile who has been a long-term visitor (nine months) to a wonderful LCMS congregation. I see that within my own family, the LCMS views on the role of women in the church are a stumbling block for many ELCA exiles who otherwise might join an LCMS congregation.
Kurt

It's not an issue in my LCMS Church.  The outgoing church council president is a woman.  She's the one who convinced me to run for a seat on our newly-formed Board of Trustees.  The way the congregation has treated her, and other women, played a deciding role in my decision to join the church instead of remaining a long-term visitor.

LutherMan

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2592 on: August 21, 2010, 07:48:33 AM »
http://mankatofreepress.com/bigstory/x865117336/Waseca-Lutheran-church-has-faith-in-the-break

August 20, 2010
Waseca Lutheran church has faith in the break

By Brian Ojanpa The Free Press

WASECA — The view from Pastor Cary Larson’s office overlooks picturesque Loon Lake in Waseca.

Its south shore is mere yards away — perfectly convenient for some old-time baptisms, he says.

He offers this as a fleeting joke as he accompanies a visitor on a tour of the fledgling Christ the King Lutheran Church, whose founding was anything but a joking matter.

<snip>

miss daisy

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2593 on: August 21, 2010, 08:44:16 AM »
I've been to that lake. It's beautiful!

LutherMan

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Re: The thread for info on churches voting to leave the ELCA & all follow-up.
« Reply #2594 on: August 21, 2010, 07:40:06 PM »
http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2010/aug/19/jp_lutheran_082110_107739/?features&local-business


Zion Lutheran Church plans ceremony as it joins Missouri Synod


An energized congregation will attend a special service Sunday afternoon at Zion Lutheran Church of Mission Valley to celebrate the church's official joining with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the second largest Lutheran body in the United States.

"We're very excited about this Sunday . and our congregation is very excited too," said Pauline Janak, Zion's church council president.
<snip>