Author Topic: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed  (Read 6384 times)

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #90 on: December 26, 2009, 11:38:43 PM »
In both of these situations, the crozier was not indicating that the bishop has any jurisdiction outside of his own territory. It was instead indicating that the one carrying it was there to perform a function peculiar to the office of bishop, namely, ordination.


In ELCA polity, the ordination is under the jurisdiction of the ordinand's first call.  Thus, for the ordination service, the Bishop is in his territory.  (It's sort of like a temporary embassy.)

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Pastor Schuster

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #91 on: December 27, 2009, 12:00:35 AM »
Thanks for that, Pr. Tibbetts. Very interesting.

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #92 on: December 27, 2009, 12:33:19 AM »
In both of these situations, the crozier was not indicating that the bishop has any jurisdiction outside of his own territory. It was instead indicating that the one carrying it was there to perform a function peculiar to the office of bishop, namely, ordination.


In ELCA polity, the ordination is under the jurisdiction of the ordinand's first call.  Thus, for the ordination service, the Bishop is in his territory.  (It's sort of like a temporary embassy.)
Although we define synods by geographical areas, we define a bishop's authority as being over the people on the synod's rosters even when they are serving outside of the geographical area. Rostered folks who are called to serve at ELCA offices (or seminaries)  they remain rostered in their previous synods and under that bishop's jurisdiction.
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SteveS

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #93 on: December 27, 2009, 01:05:31 AM »
Is the bishop of the Delaware-Maryland Synod outside his territory in Gettysburg?  According to elca.org, Mt. Joy (2615 Taneytown Rd., Gettysburg PA) is a member of the Delaware-Maryland Synod.

http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=tTOpfFHnjXWDfT1lwiAiJOzkwpJzQlJiJSZgBA%3d%3d

It is 3.5 miles from the Eisenhower Hotel and Conference Center.  I think that is close enough.  The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey, after all  ;)

Richard Johnson

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #94 on: December 27, 2009, 09:30:22 AM »
Is the bishop of the Delaware-Maryland Synod outside his territory in Gettysburg?  According to elca.org, Mt. Joy (2615 Taneytown Rd., Gettysburg PA) is a member of the Delaware-Maryland Synod.

http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=tTOpfFHnjXWDfT1lwiAiJOzkwpJzQlJiJSZgBA%3d%3d

It is 3.5 miles from the Eisenhower Hotel and Conference Center.  I think that is close enough.  The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey, after all  ;)

Interesting. If you go to the synod website, in all the descriptions of the synod it says it serves ELCA congregations in all of Delaware and all of Maryland except the DC area. But if you go to the map of the synod, there's a little blip on the northern border of Maryland that reaches up into Pennsylvania, and apparently includes that one congregation--at least that's the only one I can see. All the other congregations in Gettysburg are in the Lower Susquehanna synod. Anyone know what the story is here?
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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #95 on: December 27, 2009, 09:51:49 AM »
There is, in fact, one congregation that is (was?) part of a two point parish, one in MD the other in PA.  I think it is an accident of geography with no deep meaning.

Interesting bit of HX- the parish south of that 2 point parish, Trinity Taneytown, had its tower used as a relay point to communicate news from the Gettysburg battle field to the War Office in DC.  And the parish to the Southeast of the 2 pointer is one of the few St. mary's in the ELCA. and quite near the Union Mills where various sides watered the troops on the way into Gettysburg,, and where my children splashed and swam in the swimming hole along the Big Pipe Creek, which was to have been Meade's fall back position had he been dislodged from Cemetery Ridge.

Carroll County, MD- a beautiful place- Think the Shire.  And then imagine lots of Hobbits with anger management issues.  ;D

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #96 on: December 27, 2009, 12:46:18 PM »
Correct on the DE/MD congregation located in Adams County, Pennsylvania:  It is part of a 2 church parish.  I have no knowledge of how that interstate relationship was created.

Just a conjecture on my part, but it may have been formed around the 1920's.   My congregation was part of a four church Parish which included Bethlehem (Steltz) which is quite literally on the Mason-Dixon line.  The Stetlz church building is in Pennsylvania; the cemetery is in Maryland.

In the 1920's the Pennsylvania legistlature made a blood test for syphallis a requirement for obtaining a Marriage license.  Most of the marriage in the congregation from the 1920's through the 1940's occurred in either the parsonage or edifice of Lazurus Lutheran in Lineboro, Maryland, which as the name implies, is just over the State line.  Similar arrangements doubtelessly developed in other border counties.

The Pennsylvania Dutch were cheap (didn't want the cost of a blood test) and very stubborn (how dare they tell me that I HAVE to get one) so they found a way around it.
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krs1984

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #97 on: December 27, 2009, 01:49:46 PM »
OK being occupied in the holiday and family season I haven't entered into this discussion

Site:

the Site in Gettysburg is used for convience ...housing, location etc.  it is only  a few miles over the border and is accesible to over 70% of the synod congregations if they wish to 'comute' to the site. I always do from Baltimore because my Prius gas costs much less then room rate.

Cancelation:

My congregation would have lost the ability to have any delegates but me because we didn't send any to the Ocean City assembly....nothing was happening big expense....
Also don't praise the 'darn lawyers' for this. Legal eagles canceled this assembly and cost the synod big bucks for the University of Md. Center we had to cancel not to mention mailing etc. We were not happy about the added cost to congregations or synod anyway now we just threw thousands of dollars out the window when the synod was down over $100,000 for the year 2009 to begin with.

Result:  Synod is on hold, Call process are on hold, etc. Old staff still operating, interim bishop. Problems increasing. Maryland although not a hotbed of reaction to the CWA is showing effects of it and the recession. If we fail to elect an orthodox Bishop as we have in the past all hell will likely break loose. There are enough concerned congreations and pastors waiting to see who is elected. Current staff will not push the issue but a new one???

krs1984

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #98 on: December 27, 2009, 02:06:16 PM »
Oh and Richard

As far as 'holding an assembly at Gettysburg College' forget it.

Since they became 'Lutheran' in history only in the 80's they have never really wanted Lutheran Assemblies when they can get more 'bang for the buck' from sports camps not to mention more 'students'. We went a few times as CPS then Lower Susquehanna after temper tantrums but they un air conditioned us out and turned down a few contracts.

I was a member of the old Central Penn Synod 'Higher Education Committee' two different times in 1979-80 as a youth staffer then after I was ordained in 1985 I was appointed by the Bishop until it ended in 1987 in the merger so my files have old documents related to the 'Church relations of Church Colleges'

Pastor Schuster

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #99 on: December 27, 2009, 07:25:35 PM »
Oh and Richard

As far as 'holding an assembly at Gettysburg College' forget it.

Since they became 'Lutheran' in history only in the 80's they have never really wanted Lutheran Assemblies when they can get more 'bang for the buck' from sports camps not to mention more 'students'. We went a few times as CPS then Lower Susquehanna after temper tantrums but they un air conditioned us out and turned down a few contracts.

Yes and no on this one. Yes, the college has indeed shifted its focus on event booking to sports camps for the reason stated. However, the LSS held two assemblies at the College during this decade, while my wife and I were at the seminary.

vicarbob

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #100 on: December 27, 2009, 08:15:22 PM »
I think the reason Lutheran Synodical Bishops are seen wearing their pectoral cross inside their pockets , they have seen their RC brothers doing it so they figured...Oh that's a bishops thing to do. ;)
I wonder Pr Steve, while you are correct that the ordinant is under the jurisdiction of the Synodical bishop from which the call is issued, jurisdiction involves the particuliar geographical  make-up of the Synod. So it is more a matter of place and not of person.
To take your observation a step further, imagine a bishop for military chaplains carrying his/her crozier across not only the US but internationaly! :o
To the poster, yes the crozier is a symbol of juisdiction and not office.

FatherWilliam57

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #101 on: December 28, 2009, 02:40:28 AM »
Interesting.  In the SW PA Synod, when a visiting bishop is presiding over a worship service, we have always used the old tradition of "orientation" to designate if it is the local bishop or a visiting bishop, i.e., in procession, when the bishop is inside his own synod, he holds the crozier (the "crook") facing away from him; when he is outside his own diocese, he holds the crozier facing inward.  Likewise, when the crozier is placed in it's stand, the crozier of the local bishop is oriented so the assembly may see the crook in profile, while the crozier of a visiting bishop is placed with the crook rearward so the assembly cannot see the crook.  Just an idiosincracy of our synod?
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vicarbob

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #102 on: December 28, 2009, 09:06:52 AM »
That works too!

Dissenter

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2009, 10:32:59 AM »

Big 'duh' here on my part! Gettysburg is of course not within the territory of synod; it does, however, lie a mere 14 miles over the border, and therefore is considered close enough.

  There was a brief attempt to relocate to Hagerstown, MD, but that was kind of a mini disaster.  I was on synod council at the time and remember the site made a professional presentation, seemed adequate for our needs, and then something happened between booking and showing up.  There weren't enough rooms, a tent had to be rented for worship out in the parking lot,etc.  My favorite memory was being wakened in the night when my wall AC unit started smoking and set off the fire alarm in my room.  It was in the middle of the night and of course there were no other empty rooms available.  Ahhh, the memories...

PrSabin

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Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #104 on: December 29, 2009, 03:51:55 AM »
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier.
SPS

Are you sure about this? I had thought that the crosier is a symbol of Office. Here's an anecdotal example that would seem to support the position that the crosier signifies Office and not only jurisdiction:


I mean no disrespect to American Lutheran bishops (especially those of the ELCA flavor), but few of them seem to me to be well versed in the traditional niceties of episcopal insignia.

If you observe an Anglican or Roman Catholic liturgy where there are multiple bishops participating, youíll find that only one carries the crosier. That one is either the ordinary of the place, or on some specific occasions the Metropolitan when in his province. There was sometimes an exception to the territorial rule for ordinations, but then the bishop not in his own diocese would carry the crosier with the crook facing himself (inward) rather than outward.

This is one reason I favor miters for Lutheran bishops as miters are symbols of episcopal office and not of jurisdiction. The same is true of the pectoral cross, but since so many Lutheran pastors also wear a cross, the symbolism is a bit muddy. While Iím picking nits, when vested for the Eucharist, a bishopís pectoral cross is most properly worn over the alb but under the chasuble. The ring is a middle case in that while a bishop wears it outside his territory, it is customary to receive a new one if a bishop is translated (something forbidden in the ancient canons as it was seen as analogous to divorce) to a new see (or so I believe used to be the case).

SPS

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 04:02:45 AM by The Rev. Steven P. Sabin »