Author Topic: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed  (Read 6392 times)

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10374
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2009, 02:55:43 PM »
I do find that incredibly strange, but it is apparently the truth.


No, Mike, it isn't apparently the truth. But it is possibly the truth, and the point was that one shouldn't make assumptions when one doesn't really know the truth.

Of course when else do we make assumptions . . .  ;)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

olarmy02

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2009, 02:58:13 PM »

  That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.  A trip through Yad Vashem last June in Jerusalem helped seal the deal for me personally. I'm not a very emotionally demonstrative fellow, but as I walked through that place of remembrance, reflecting on how Catholic and Lutheran Germans could have let it happen, it made me weep.


The holocaust was horrible.  But it isn't clear to me that Lutherans are/were the culpable parties in some special way, any more than Lutherans are/were especially praiseworthy because of the rescue of the Danish Jews by the overwhelminly Lutheran Danish population, who responded to Nazi demands to turn in their Jews by spiriting them away to neutral (and Lutheran) Sweden instead.

We have a newish holocaust museum here in Skokie, two miles from where I work.  One day I need to stop in and do some weeping of my own.  Perhaps during my at-home vacation next week.

Plus the American Lutherans that fought in the US Army against the enemy and liberated concentration camps.
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse

Dissenter

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2009, 03:12:28 PM »

Plus the American Lutherans that fought in the US Army against the enemy and liberated concentration camps.

Yup.  My old man was a medic in the European theater. Never talked about the experience, but I'm pretty sure that's what got him drinking and on a downward spiral.  My wife's uncle was made a POW at the Battle of the Bulge. He never talked about it, but decided to write a book two years before he died. My uncle started the war as a diver salvaging ships in Pearl Harbor, became a gunner's mate and had three ships sunk out from under him.  The Navy let him go after the last one.

But to a Jew, I'm not so sure those things yet outweigh their many years of history at the hands of Christians.  Just so we're clear, two years ago I baptized a converting Jew and may have another one in a few months.  They're simply not my target.


Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2009, 03:17:43 PM »
Everyone should read Constantine's Sword: the Church and the Jews by James Carroll before waxing all eloquent about how some Christians helped the Jews during the Holocaust. Yes, some did, but...

GoCubsGo

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2009, 03:25:18 PM »
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.
A little 8th commandment alert: Could it be possible that the planners, in putting together this service, tried a variety of other venues but that none was available on the date that was required? If one wasn't involved in the planning, it seems uncharitable for one to say, "Well, they could have had it there or there or there."
The bolded section was an attempt at honoring the 8th commandment, but looking back it does come across as half-hearted. Synod functions are not simple to plan....it isn't "your church x 7". There are complications galore.  We here in the south held our last installation at a Methodist church. The major sticking point was communion and whether or not the Lutherans could use alchoholic wine. They relented, but it was after considerable deliberation.
As the ELCA struggles with the consequences of CWA 2009 it seems to me that finding a large enough venue may not be such a problem.  It may be that bishops installation are attended by so few ELCA Lutherans that a larger ELCA parish may be quite large enough.

olarmy02

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2009, 03:38:52 PM »
Everyone should read Constantine's Sword: the Church and the Jews by James Carroll before waxing all eloquent about how some Christians helped the Jews during the Holocaust. Yes, some did, but...

Not waxing, just trying to make the point that not every Lutheran was popping open cans of zyklon-b, and that the tragedy of the Shoah should not diminish our evangelism to the Jews.  It should, however, tailor our methods given the sensitivity of the situation.

Pr. Austin, thank you for the suggestion.  I am always up for a good read, I'll check it out.
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse

Kevin C.

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2009, 04:44:25 PM »
Dissenter wrote:

Quote
That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.

I sure did  not mean any disrespect or distastefullness in asking the question.  I asked it in a response to Mike G.'s post.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  I just always was taught that the Jews were God's chosen people and would be saved.

Kevin

MMH

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2009, 04:51:14 PM »
To get this back on track-

According to the Articles, I would have had a vote, even though I am no longer a member of the ELCA.  Imagine the fun a Roman Catholic could have in deliberating on the Synodical bishop.  The Old Adam in me likes to think I scared them into changing the date.  There is no emoticon for baring fangs and growling in mock fearsomeness.  I know that singly, that I did not really hit the radar. But if there are a few more like me, then I can see a rational reason for postponing.  

It will be interesting to see which way the Synod tips.  They had voted to go RiC then sobered up and recanted.  I also suspect that there are some key congregations that don't necessarily see the ELCA brand as necessary for their ability to do mission and ministry on the local level nor the only means to be part of the larger Church.  Also, the folks who wish to bring on the pansexual Ragnarok will be organizing.  Waiting to June gives them more time.

Pastor Schuster

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2009, 09:39:12 PM »
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

I did my internship in the Delaware-Maryland Synod.  Two reasons:  lower costs, but more importantly, it is one of the ways that synod "connects" with the ELCA college they relate to and support.  In SW PA Synod, as George pointed out, we have our assemblies at Thiel College.  Same rationale:  lower costs, but more important, the ELCA college to which we relate.  (Besides, a high percentage of our pastors are Thiel graduates.  In fact, I attended my first synod convention as a delegate in the LCA from the Western Pennsylvania-West Virginia Synod in 1972.  That convention began on my fifteenth birthday...I had just been confirmed the week before on Pentecost!  I was impressed and eventually attended Thiel when the time came for college.)

No, these are not the reasons. Delaware-Maryland is my home synod. The synod assembly is alternately held at the Eisenhower Conference Center in Gettysburg and/or Gettysburg College, and the University of Delaware. These are the only facilities on the territory of the synod that have adequate space for both meetings and worship, and adequate housing for those voting members who need it. Additionally, these venues are chosen so that voting members from the Eastern and Southern areas of the synod do not always have to drive all the way to the northern area every year, and vice-versa.

Big 'duh' here on my part! Gettysburg is of course not within the territory of synod; it does, however, lie a mere 14 miles over the border, and therefore is considered close enough.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 09:55:52 PM by Pastor Schuster, STS »

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10374
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #84 on: December 26, 2009, 09:56:57 PM »

No, these are not the reasons. Delaware-Maryland is my home synod. The synod assembly is alternately held at the Eisenhower Conference Center in Gettysburg and/or Gettysburg College, and the University of Delaware. These are the only facilities on the territory of the synod that have adequate space for both meetings and worship, and adequate housing for those voting members who need it.

But that's the whole point. Gettysburg College is not on the territory of the synod.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Ken Kimball

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #85 on: December 26, 2009, 10:01:28 PM »
Similarly the LaCrosse Area Synod meets at Luther College, Decorah, Iowa (NE Iowa Synod) and the SE Iowa synod meets at Wartburg College, Waverly, Iowa (again, NE Iowa Synod).  Unfortunately, merely breathing the air and walking upon the soil of the Northeast Iowa synod does not impart or inculcate orthodoxy.  (If it could we'd bottle it for the rest of the ELCA). 

Ken

Pastor Schuster

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2009, 10:56:10 PM »
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier.
SPS

Are you sure about this? I had thought that the crozier is a symbol of Office. Here's an anecdotal example that would seem to support the position that the crozier signifies Office and not only jurisdiction:

When my wife and I were seniors at LTSG we supplied at a very small congregation in the western part of the synod. I invited former bishop Knoche to lead worship one Sunday in Advent. He arrived carrying his crozier, which was separated into sections, in a Winchester shotgun case. When queried about this unusual mode of conveyance, the bishop said that he could not take his crozier onto airplanes when it was fully assembled. Consultation with airlines and the FAA produced the suggestion that he use the gun case and have the crozier stowed in the baggage compartment. When asked what would occasion the need for him to take his crozier outside of the synod, he replied, 'Ordinations.'

In a similar vein, I once attended an ordination at Christ Lutheran at Baltimore's Inner Harbor. The ordinand, a son of that congregation, had been called to a church in Virginia. Virginia Synod Bishop Mauney presided at the service, and he carried his crozier during the processional and recessional, and it was in its holder in the chancel during the remainder of the service.

In both of these situations, the crozier was not indicating that the bishop has any jurisdiction outside of his own territory. It was instead indicating that the one carrying it was there to perform a function peculiar to the office of bishop, namely, ordination.

I'll be interested in anyone's input on this issue. 

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3912
    • View Profile
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2009, 11:06:12 PM »
Anecdotally, I have heard and/or read that one reason why Western Bishops are often pictured with their pectoral crosses tucked in a pocket or behind a suit coat lapel is because they are outside of their jurisdiction when the picture is taken. 

I've never seen that in pictures of assembled Eastern hierarchs.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 11:10:39 PM by Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS »
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Pastor Schuster

  • Guest
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #88 on: December 26, 2009, 11:33:11 PM »
Anecdotally, I have heard and/or read that one reason why Western Bishops are often pictured with their pectoral crosses tucked in a pocket or behind a suit coat lapel is because they are outside of their jurisdiction when the picture is taken. 

And I just thought it was so that they didn't get the darned things in their soup!  :D

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10374
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
« Reply #89 on: December 26, 2009, 11:34:32 PM »
Anecdotally, I have heard and/or read that one reason why Western Bishops are often pictured with their pectoral crosses tucked in a pocket or behind a suit coat lapel is because they are outside of their jurisdiction when the picture is taken. 

I've never seen that in pictures of assembled Eastern hierarchs.

I've often seen bishops in my synod keep the pectoral cross in their pocket, even within the synod

But then they've never had much jurisdiction even there.  ;D
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS