Author Topic: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?  (Read 18693 times)

grabau14

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #360 on: December 28, 2009, 09:03:05 PM »
Pr. Bohler,

The sainted Dr. Marquart, paraphrasing the sainted Hermann Sasse, stated that the Missouri Synod suffers from bureaucratitis.   Leave it to the politicians to think our problems lie in structure and by-law changes.

swbohler

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #361 on: December 28, 2009, 09:37:16 PM »
I am assuming that Dr. Benke is referring to the CCM responding to my questions.  And it great that it did so.  However, that IS one of its functions as set forth in the bylaws of the Synod.  So maybe we should say of it "we are but unworthy servants doing our duty".

Dave Benke

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #362 on: December 29, 2009, 08:43:03 AM »
To your point one, SW, the Synod in Convention, our Ultimate Arbitrator, not us bureaucrats, asked for structural change.  I don't know if you were a votante at the last convention, but I wasn't.  They received the report and asked for decisions to be made at this next Ultimate Experience in July.  The will of the people has been heard and the vote recorded. 

Dave Benke

swbohler

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #363 on: December 29, 2009, 09:06:45 AM »
Dr. Benke,

Yes, I was the pastoral delegate from our circuit at the 2007 convention.  I recall hearing from bureaucrat after bureaucrat telling us we needed to make changes.  I did not hear that from the delegate microphones much, if at all.  I am home yet but when I get to the office and have the chance I will read the proceedings from the convention -- however, my recollection was not that the convention said "let's do this" but rather "tell us more why you think it is necessary (either at a special convention or at the next convention -- which one to be at the discretion of the President)".  In other words, the 2007 convention did not ask for structural change but was TOLD it was needed, and it decided it would hear more at a later time and then make its decision as to whether change was really needed.

swbohler

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #364 on: December 29, 2009, 10:59:51 AM »
So, I got out my copy of the 2007 Convention Proceedings.  Resolution 8-07S (p. 165)  simply states, in one of its "whereas's", that the Synod has changed structure "many times to meet its changing needs" (it is important to note that the resolution is not endorsing any claim to a present need to change structure); in another "whereas" it says that former presidents Bohlmann and Kuhn, "other current elected leaders, as well as our Council of Presidents all support having a special convention" (again, not that they are endorsing any changes but simply having a special convention -- although I believe a number of these folks did speak up in favor of changes).  The "resolved's" are: 1) President Kieschnick is directed to meet with the COP and seminary presidents, the CTCR, the BOD, the Treasurer, "other officers of the Synod", and the CCM, 2) that if President Kieschnickand 2/3 of the DP's decide to call a special convention (which, by the way, the bylaws already had said they could do, with or witout this resolved from the 2007 convention) that the 2007 delegates were ready to attend, and 3) that no proposed changes to the structure and governance of the Synod conflict with Article II and VI of the Constitution.  That's all I could find in the Proceedings about the convention's decisions on structure.  That seems a far cry from Dr. Benke's claim that the convention "asked for structural change".

Dave Benke

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #365 on: December 29, 2009, 11:17:14 AM »
SW, I've done two, maybe three structural change moves in the Atlantic District.  Committees were formed, information was received, the staff and the committees proposed the changes and they were adopted.  Why did we do these totally bureaucratic things, even more than once?  Because they were deemed by me, the leader of the organization, and by others in elected leadership to be possibly salutary in assisting us to carry out our mission and ministry.  We spent some money on the process - not much, but some - we tested it out, we informed people, we voted.

The convention voted for the process to continue and it has continued.  It has been done through committees and staff and informational procedures and face-to-face meetings, and will be performed to conclusion.  That's really all there is to it. 

Secondly, as much as I operate out of a parish perspective and will always do so as a Bishop/President, the function of Don Fondow, your District President, is not primarily bureaucratic, but ecclesiastical.  I guess it makes you feel better to call everyone not in a parish a bureaucrat, and without question there are some adminstrative procedures that are bureaucratic, such as asking whether you have received any new members by adult instruction.   I can only say that the District Presidents as a group and man to man are pastors of the Church serving in ecclesiastical supervision, and the overseers, in that regard, should be treated with and termed with respect.

Dave Benke

swbohler

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #366 on: December 29, 2009, 11:53:35 AM »
Dr. Benke,

So now you are saying that the elected leaders have seen a need for changes and are advocating them.  I can agree with that.  But that is not the same as your earlier claim ("To your point one, SW, the Synod in Convention, our Ultimate Arbitrator, not us bureaucrats, asked for structural change").  I'll take your latest post as an admission that the impetus for these changes is not, and never has been, from anyone but the bureaucrats (or elected leaders, if that title makes you happier).  As to whether those who have no call to preach, commune, or baptize are really pastors, I'll leave that for another time and place.

Dave Benke

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #367 on: December 29, 2009, 11:58:19 AM »
I think "elected leaders" would make you, them and me happier, SW.  Thanks.

Dave Benke

swbohler

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Re: Constitutional Basis for LCMS PreConvention Gatherings?
« Reply #368 on: December 29, 2009, 12:19:43 PM »
OK, elected leaders it is then.