Author Topic: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays  (Read 12052 times)

Chuck

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Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« on: December 19, 2009, 09:21:18 PM »
The Washington Times carried this article today:

Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
Tensions rising in synod split
By Wayne M. Anderson THE WASHINGTON TIMES

...But the splits within the ELCA, which is more than twice the Episcopal Church's size, are getting ugly in their own way. Pastors taking their churches out of the ELCA are making charges of "unethical, immoral and in some cases, illegal" acts by bishops and other officials, Mr. Kallestad said.

"I'm talking to some pastors and leaders from many states around the nation, whose [ELCA] bishops are becoming very hostile," Mr. Kallestad said. ...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/dec/19/dissident-lutherans-claim-bullying-over-gays/
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

Charles_Austin

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 09:26:49 PM »
Unfortunately, but not surprisingly for The Washington Times, the sensationalist headline is not supported by the text of the story.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 09:58:37 PM »
Unfortunately, but not surprisingly for The Washington Times, the sensationalist headline is not supported by the text of the story.

Hmmm. . . which part do you think is not supported? Seemed a pretty fair headline for the story to me. That's not to say that the story itself is entirely reliable, but the headline seems to accurately reflect the story.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

GalRev83

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 10:18:21 PM »
This is the blog tracing the events from the standpoint of the LCMC advocates. Amazing.

http://faithelcainfo.blogspot.com/

GalRev83

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 10:36:21 PM »
One last thing and I will again recede into the woodwork. This blog is tracking  congregations as they take their votes. I have been interested in seeing real numbers/impact, and this might be helpful.

http://blog.captainthin.net/?p=294


jrubyaz

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 10:55:41 PM »

Oh, come on, Dissenter. You know I was just overreacting, all will be fine, no need to assume  anything other than that things are honky dory.....I am just too negative, and would have never, ever,  possibly been close to the reality on this subject ..... ;) :o

Sad but true. As everyone says, a divorce always "starts out amicable".

This is the blog tracing the events from the standpoint of the LCMC advocates. Amazing.

http://faithelcainfo.blogspot.com/


Any pastor with even a few years under his/her belt knows how easy it is to kick of a congregational conflict.  Some of them, once ignited, rapidly escalate into a full-blown war/jihad. The issue for this one is sensational, but unfortunately the dynamics are not.

This is the sort of thing Jeff has been talking about for months; the disintegration of congregations as a result of the vote.  Jeff thinks a couple thousand will come apart. I'm starting to agree.  And as they do, a lot of bad PR for the Body of Christ is about to happen and there's little doubt the orthodox will be blamed for all of it.  Shades of the Episcopal Church.

 

Dennis

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 11:21:29 PM »
The situation at Faith Church, Moline, is tragic as it is when any congregation is divided.  Is anyone actually interested in knowing why a third of the congregation does not want to leave the ELCA and the grief they may have experienced? According to the media, over 100 members of Faith signed a peitition to the synod to ask for a synodical consultation team.  Why?

St. John's in Roanoke, according to the newspaper, has also experienced the trauma of congregational division, broken friendships, and members feeling severed from their pastors and church.  Has anyone asked the dissenters there why they feel so strongly about not leaving the ELCA?

Yes, there are many congregations solidly behind their pastors and leadership leading them out of the ELCA, no doubt about that.  But there are others where there is no strong 2/3 majority, no desire to follow the pastors and leadership, and a real grief about what is happening to beloved congregations. No matter how one feels about the decisions made in Minneapolis, this is a terrible time for many congregations in the ELCA. There also seems to be a forgetting that there are faithful, Biible-believing, dedicated Christians and church members on BOTH sides of the issue.

In congregations where there is a strong minority of dissenters from the position of the pastors, leadership and majoirty of members, what is the solution? What kind of care should those dissenters receive from their pastors and council members?





jrubyaz

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 12:38:39 AM »
Dennis,

There is no doubt there are many, many more congregations than the ones you have listed below that are facing these issues. In some, the pastor or pastors are revisionists, in others, more traditional . In some the laity support leaving by a large margin, in others, a larger majority wants to stay.

Any way you look at it, it is a mess. I have been saying since returning from Mn and CWA that the real losses in the ELCA will not be in congregations leaving, but in congregations fragmenting, closing, having to merge, losing money and members.  I had hoped I was wrong, but this seems to be playing out across the country as a slow motion train wreck.

Dissenter points out correctly that had the ELCA leadership noted the number of laity opposed to this,  and really cared about what they thought, rather than pushing an agenda, we would not be here.

But that is all history now. As Dr. Pearson points out in another post, the analogy of Tiger Woods is instructive .Who is to blame for the marital issues? Some say it is his bride, who got angry and most likely went after him the night of the wreck. Others point to his alleged serial sexual addiction. If she responds in anger (noting some anger is appropriate, some not) , is she wrong? Who is at fault?

In the same way, who is at fault here? Leadership of the ELCA? The CWA? Luheran Goodsoil, Lutherans Concerned, CORE?  The church council for allowing a simple majority ? The reactions of bishops, pastors, parishes, laity?

People need to own this decision. They wanted it, so now  the revisionists need to own it.   Until they do, it will not be a good situation. I would be surprised, and greatly encouraged, if our Presiding Bishop was just honest and said "Folks ,this decision was not wise, it was rushed, it was not the broad consensus of this church, and as such, I am going to address the real pain in our churches and people by traveling across the ELCA in 2010 and trying to repair the damage done". It wouldn't change the results, but would ackowledge the pain this has caused, and the problems in many places.

Instead, we get press spin, and pr about how wonderful things are , while cutting budgets and staff left and right.

Do I think all pastors or laypeople on both sides of this have made mistakes? Certainly .Have some forced or manipulated things? Absolutely.

However, I can speak to may experience, and that is having nasty things said to me by some who supported the changes,  in MN and elsewhere. And i know others had it worse, including a young pastor from Texas whose name and photo got bandied about websites as a hater simply because he disagreed.

I would hope  pastors and laity  would use common sense. All should be listened to.

 One reason we waited five months until any further discussion of these issues after an open forum in September at our parish was the fact that emotions after a crisis  usually lead to bad decisions. It does seem that congregations where leadership is taking their time with these issues, regardless of size, leadership, or position on the issues, are faring better than those who rushed into things.



The situation at Faith Church, Moline, is tragic as it is when any congregation is divided.  Is anyone actually interested in knowing why a third of the congregation does not want to leave the ELCA and the grief they may have experienced? According to the media, over 100 members of Faith signed a peitition to the synod to ask for a synodical consultation team.  Why?

St. John's in Roanoke, according to the newspaper, has also experienced the trauma of congregational division, broken friendships, and members feeling severed from their pastors and church.  Has anyone asked the dissenters there why they feel so strongly about not leaving the ELCA?

Yes, there are many congregations solidly behind their pastors and leadership leading them out of the ELCA, no doubt about that.  But there are others where there is no strong 2/3 majority, no desire to follow the pastors and leadership, and a real grief about what is happening to beloved congregations. No matter how one feels about the decisions made in Minneapolis, this is a terrible time for many congregations in the ELCA. There also seems to be a forgetting that there are faithful, Biible-believing, dedicated Christians and church members on BOTH sides of the issue.

In congregations where there is a strong minority of dissenters from the position of the pastors, leadership and majoirty of members, what is the solution? What kind of care should those dissenters receive from their pastors and council members?





« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 12:45:42 AM by jrubyaz »

Charles_Austin

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2009, 03:57:08 AM »
I was especially "amused" by the congregation that threatened the synod consultation team with arrest if they came to discuss the situation. Seems like the "bullying," if it exists, can go both ways.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2009, 04:28:41 AM »
Pastor Ruby writes:
In the same way, who is at fault here? Leadership of the ELCA? The CWA? Luheran Goodsoil, Lutherans Concerned, CORE?  The church council for allowing a simple majority ? The reactions of bishops, pastors, parishes, laity?
I comment:
Yes, to everyone on that list, to some degree. There is plenty of "fault" to spread around; but not much benefit in deciding allotments.

Pastor Ruby writes:
People need to own this decision. They wanted it, so now  the revisionists need to own it.   Until they do, it will not be a good situation.
I comment:
People need to own the decision to leave or to protest. They want to do so, so now the traditionalists need to own it.
     Until they quit acting like the situation all belongs to "someone else," things will remain terrible. Hollering "they left us, they made us do this," isn't very helpful.

Pastor Ruby writes:
I would be surprised, and greatly encouraged, if our Presiding Bishop was just honest and said "Folks ,this decision was not wise, it was rushed, it was not the broad consensus of this church, and as such, I am going to address the real pain in our churches and people by traveling across the ELCA in 2010 and trying to repair the damage done".
I comment:
I would be surprised, and greatly encouraged, if Pastor Ruby was honest and just said "Folks, our church is in trouble, it is conflicted, and because of that I am going to address the real pain in our congregation by speaking to everyone individually in 2010 and repair the damage done." 
      Are you about to do that for those folks in your parish who do not want to leave the ELCA? Furthermore, the presiding bishop told everyone far in advance that he would support whatever decision was made by the Assembly.

Pastor Ruby:
Instead, we get press spin, and pr about how wonderful things are , while cutting budgets and staff left and right.
Me:
A non sequitur, indeed. How can being honest about budgets and staff cuts be "pr about how wonderful things are." Remember the ELCA is being open about such matters.
     And how is it "spin" to note that there are congregations who come through "the troubles" in a healthy fashion? The fact that a congregation apparently did so may be distasteful to you, but why is it wrong to point out that it happened?
     There are plenty of stories from congregations that say "We're leaving the ELCA! Hooray! Really socked it to the bishop and all those other nasty folks! Glad to be out of there and to be a 'real' church again."
     Are you ready to pounce on those stories as well? Or will your church be one of them?

Dissenter

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 07:54:46 AM »

In congregations where there is a strong minority of dissenters from the position of the pastors, leadership and majoirty of members, what is the solution? What kind of care should those dissenters receive from their pastors and council members?


  Sadly, I suspect there is no solution.  As an older pastor taught me years ago, "Any damn fool can destroy a church, the real art is holding one together."  With the decision in August, foolishness has been set free to harm the Body of Christ.

Dissenter

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 07:58:36 AM »
Quote
Someone with an astonishing lack of insight about congregational conflict blurted:

I was especially "amused" by the congregation that threatened the synod consultation team with arrest if they came to discuss the situation. Seems like the "bullying," if it exists, can go both ways.

 Amused.  Need I say more.

jrubyaz

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 08:11:36 AM »
Yes, we are engaging all people, although so far it seems everyone in our parish is against the CWA decisions except for two families out of 3600 members,. Yes,  I think that engaging people would be a good thing for everyone, except our ELCA leadership doesn't seem interested.  So , yes, Pastor I have sat down with those families and engaged them.

Funny thing is, both may stay because they are beginning to see the biblical and theological issues at stake. So we may end up losing no one at all....imagine that.  Dialogue can create change without a simple majority vote..... ::)

Pastor Ruby writes:
In the same way, who is at fault here? Leadership of the ELCA? The CWA? Luheran Goodsoil, Lutherans Concerned, CORE?  The church council for allowing a simple majority ? The reactions of bishops, pastors, parishes, laity?
I comment:
Yes, to everyone on that list, to some degree. There is plenty of "fault" to spread around; but not much benefit in deciding allotments.

Pastor Ruby writes:
People need to own this decision. They wanted it, so now  the revisionists need to own it.   Until they do, it will not be a good situation.
I comment:
People need to own the decision to leave or to protest. They want to do so, so now the traditionalists need to own it.
     Until they quit acting like the situation all belongs to "someone else," things will remain terrible. Hollering "they left us, they made us do this," isn't very helpful.

Pastor Ruby writes:
I would be surprised, and greatly encouraged, if our Presiding Bishop was just honest and said "Folks ,this decision was not wise, it was rushed, it was not the broad consensus of this church, and as such, I am going to address the real pain in our churches and people by traveling across the ELCA in 2010 and trying to repair the damage done".
I comment:
I would be surprised, and greatly encouraged, if Pastor Ruby was honest and just said "Folks, our church is in trouble, it is conflicted, and because of that I am going to address the real pain in our congregation by speaking to everyone individually in 2010 and repair the damage done."  
      Are you about to do that for those folks in your parish who do not want to leave the ELCA? Furthermore, the presiding bishop told everyone far in advance that he would support whatever decision was made by the Assembly.

Pastor Ruby:
Instead, we get press spin, and pr about how wonderful things are , while cutting budgets and staff left and right.
Me:
A non sequitur, indeed. How can being honest about budgets and staff cuts be "pr about how wonderful things are." Remember the ELCA is being open about such matters.
     And how is it "spin" to note that there are congregations who come through "the troubles" in a healthy fashion? The fact that a congregation apparently did so may be distasteful to you, but why is it wrong to point out that it happened?
     There are plenty of stories from congregations that say "We're leaving the ELCA! Hooray! Really socked it to the bishop and all those other nasty folks! Glad to be out of there and to be a 'real' church again."
     Are you ready to pounce on those stories as well? Or will your church be one of them?


Scott6

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 08:18:54 AM »
Unfortunately, but not surprisingly for The Washington Times, the sensationalist headline is not supported by the text of the story.

Huh?

One incident the story related:

Hosanna Lutheran Church in St. Charles, part of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod, does not agree with that assessment and voted overwhelmingly on Nov. 8 to leave the ELCA. In that case, according to the church's senior pastor, the threat was financial, against a pastor's pension.

"It was threatened to me by a representative of the synod," the Rev. John Nelson said. "We have defined-contribution pensions ... we are the owners of them. I just looked at him and said, 'You know that's illegal. You can't do that.'"

Mr. Nelson declined to name the synod representative but said the motive for these threats is rooted in fear.

"The ELCA is scared," Mr. Nelson said. "They are making decisions out of fear."

Bishop Wayne Miller, of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod, declined repeated requests for specific comment about the Hosanna situation and the pension-threat charge.

Instead he sent The Times a general "pastoral letter" written to synod members, asking people to "give time for conversation and reflection" during this time.

"Bishop Miller stated that he had no more comments to give you," Mary Richardson, executive assistant to the bishop, said in an e-mail. "And [he] would appreciate it, if you would stop calling him."


The text of the story certainly did support the headline.

Scott6

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Re: Dissident Lutherans: Bullying over gays
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 08:25:15 AM »
I was especially "amused" by the congregation that threatened the synod consultation team with arrest if they came to discuss the situation. Seems like the "bullying," if it exists, can go both ways.

Re-read what happened.  It was not with arrest but with removal.  Accuracy is important, Charles.