Author Topic: Lay theologians  (Read 15479 times)

Dave Benke

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #150 on: December 24, 2009, 01:13:59 PM »
I got my info from a site called AnneHutchinson.com.  All I can really tell you,Karl and SW, is that in the civil realm when they name a river and a parkway after you, they think you done good.  In the riht-hand realm are we opposed to women teaching Christianity in mission?  Merry Christmas again, have a drumstick for me and Anne.  Dave Benke
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swbohler

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #151 on: December 24, 2009, 03:15:28 PM »
Gee, janielou, how far back are you going to get this picture of marriage that you relate?  Arranged marriages?  Women as chattel with no rights?  I suppose that there have been that sort, but I see very little in the American history and literature I read.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #152 on: December 24, 2009, 03:48:08 PM »
No, the issue is: when does the "tradition" in "traditional marriage" begin?

grabau14

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #153 on: December 24, 2009, 04:00:44 PM »
Concerning traditional marriage:

18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,

   "This at last is bone of my bones
   and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
   because she was taken out of Man."

 24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

I would think that this would answer the question for Pr. Austin, but I hold little to no hope that it will. 

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #154 on: December 24, 2009, 04:02:59 PM »
Concerning traditional marriage:

18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,

   "This at last is bone of my bones
   and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
   because she was taken out of Man."

 24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

I would think that this would answer the question for Pr. Austin, but I hold little to no hope that it will. 
I don't see a single word about marriage there -- just "leaving" and "holding fast". It is just as much a passage about living together as it is marriage.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Michael Slusser

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #155 on: December 24, 2009, 04:14:58 PM »
It is just as much a passage about living together as it is marriage.
You might as well say that it's just as much about leaving your parents' home!
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

swbohler

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #156 on: December 24, 2009, 04:21:54 PM »
Rev. Uttenreither,

How long did it take for Rev. Stoffregen to try to introduce doubt?  Less than 3 minutes?  Really -- did you have him all lined up and ready with that rejoinder before you even posted?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 05:45:51 PM by Richard Johnson »

Tom

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #157 on: December 24, 2009, 04:29:48 PM »
Ok Folks youal'l have me wondering if any of you know what you are saying.

Be Happy that our Lord has everlasting mercy for us.

grabau14

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #158 on: December 24, 2009, 04:41:41 PM »
Rev. Uttenreither,

How long did it take for Rev. Stoffregen to try to introduce doubt?  Less than 3 minutes?  Really-- did you have him all lined up and ready with that rejoinder before you even posted?

The truth is the truth regardless of the distortions of Pr. Stoffregen.  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 05:46:11 PM by Richard Johnson »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #159 on: December 24, 2009, 04:43:26 PM »
Rev. Uttenreither,

How long did it take for Rev. Stoffregen to try to introduce doubt?  Less than 3 minutes?  I know Rev. Stoffregen is not Rev. Austin (well, some days I wonder if that is true) but really -- did you have him all lined up and ready with that rejoinder before you even posted?
Doubt about what? I'm an exegete. I'm absolutely certain that there was no marriage licenses nor licensed officials back in the days of the first humans. Thus, by our definition, there were no marriages. Unless the argument is that leaving one's parents and moving in with a helpmate (and engaging in sexual relationships) constitutes a marriage, then this text has no relevance.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #160 on: December 24, 2009, 04:46:16 PM »
Rev. Uttenreither,

How long did it take for Rev. Stoffregen to try to introduce doubt?  Less than 3 minutes?  I know Rev. Stoffregen is not Rev. Austin (well, some days I wonder if that is true) but really -- did you have him all lined up and ready with that rejoinder before you even posted?

The truth is the truth regardless of the distortions of Pr. Stoffregen.
What have I distorted? What in that passage leads you to believe that it is the truth about marriage -- especially as we have defined it in the U.S. (and in our churches) with the requirement of a state license and authorized official?

Unless you really take this text serious and conclude that if a couple has had sexual intercourse -- become "one flesh" -- you and your church will recognize them as married -- this passage has no bearing on marriage as practiced in the U.S.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 04:48:24 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rob J

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #161 on: December 24, 2009, 04:49:24 PM »
Rev. Uttenreither,

How long did it take for Rev. Stoffregen to try to introduce doubt?  Less than 3 minutes?  I know Rev. Stoffregen is not Rev. Austin (well, some days I wonder if that is true) but really -- did you have him all lined up and ready with that rejoinder before you even posted?

The truth is the truth regardless of the distortions of Pr. Stoffregen.
What have I distorted? What in that passage leads you to believe that it is the truth about marriage -- especially as we have defined it in the U.S. (and in our churches) with the requirement of a state license and authorized official?

Unless you really take this text serious and conclude that if a couple has had sexual intercourse -- become "one flesh" -- you and your church will recognize them as married -- this passage has no bearing on marriage as practiced in the U.S.

This is simply an effort to derail the conversation.

Jim Butler

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #162 on: December 24, 2009, 05:18:56 PM »
Rev. Butler,

Giving a presentation is not the same thing as being called/commissioned as a teacher of theology in one of our seminaries or universities. 


So you are saying it would be permissible? (You didn't actually say "yes" or "no" so I'm making sure.)

Such an instance would not fall under the prohibition that women should not teach men?
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #163 on: December 24, 2009, 05:20:44 PM »
Rev. Uttenreither,

How long did it take for Rev. Stoffregen to try to introduce doubt?  Less than 3 minutes?  I know Rev. Stoffregen is not Rev. Austin (well, some days I wonder if that is true) but really -- did you have him all lined up and ready with that rejoinder before you even posted?

The truth is the truth regardless of the distortions of Pr. Stoffregen.
What have I distorted? What in that passage leads you to believe that it is the truth about marriage -- especially as we have defined it in the U.S. (and in our churches) with the requirement of a state license and authorized official?

Unless you really take this text serious and conclude that if a couple has had sexual intercourse -- become "one flesh" -- you and your church will recognize them as married -- this passage has no bearing on marriage as practiced in the U.S.

This is simply an effort to derail the conversation.
There has been no conversation, rather responders have talked about me, not to me. They make claims without any evidence, e.g., cause doubt, distort the truth, derail the conversation. Note also that I was not the one who brought in the topic of marriage to this discussion.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: Lay theologians
« Reply #164 on: December 24, 2009, 06:01:46 PM »
To my surprise, it took a dozen pages of discussion before the usual folks snapped this discussion back to Topic One.