Author Topic: New Lutheran body to be formed  (Read 19935 times)

George Erdner

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #255 on: November 25, 2009, 12:12:27 PM »



Yes, it's a dark road. Satan thrives in the darkness. It is his natural realm. When the Great Deceiver seeks to deceive people into doing his bidding while thinking they were actually serving God, it helps that the Great Deceiver can operate from the darkness. Satan depends on those he has tricked to wail, and moan, and gnash their teeth at any accusation that could reveal his diabolical influence.

Satan is not reluctant to use any lie or trick to have his way. Satan doesn't tempt by appearing as an evil looking monster, he tempts by speaking calmly. When Satan tells a lie, it's often told in a very polite, civil fashion. Satan can deceive through persuasion, not just brute force.

Satan loves people who want to suppress all conflict, all bold, plain speech, and to sweep disagreements under the rug if that's what it takes for everyone to "just get along". Such people can be his most useful yet unwitting tools.

I commend a quiet weekend reading The Screwtape Letters, for some interesting views into Satan's work by an author who is not hell bent on proving somebody else to be in Satan's thrall.  I've found that such reading is done best with an eye toward application to one's own life - not to somebody else's

Mike Bennett

Much of what I have learned about how Satan acts has come from the work of C. S. Lewis. When I read such works, I attempt to apply them to my own life. However, when I post in here, writing about my own personal struggles with avoiding the deceptions of the Great Deceiver would be as boring to others as writing about my sex life would.

That sure wasn't my experience reading The Screwtape Letters with a book group.  One person and then another would say, "That's so like me!" and say why, and others would agree that it was so like them.  I don't remember anybody ever saying, "Oh yeah, I know somebody else who's just like that!"  And we never talked about our sex lives that I recall.  Of all the times I've read The Screwtape Letters that time was probably the most beneficial, as well as interesting.

Mike Bennett

You missed my point. I also saw those same things in my own behaviour that you describe, at the time I was reading the books. But that was then and this is now. When I see actions being taken by large groups of people, sometimes those actions remind me of what I learned from those books.

As for talking about sex lives, I was merely pointing out that talking about any aspects of our own personal lives tend to bore others. That's true whether it is sex, our susceptibility to influences of the Great Liar, what our favorite type of underwear is, or how we interacted with our siblings. My point was almost all details of our personal lives bore others.

Mike Bennett

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #256 on: November 25, 2009, 12:51:09 PM »



Yes, it's a dark road. Satan thrives in the darkness. It is his natural realm. When the Great Deceiver seeks to deceive people into doing his bidding while thinking they were actually serving God, it helps that the Great Deceiver can operate from the darkness. Satan depends on those he has tricked to wail, and moan, and gnash their teeth at any accusation that could reveal his diabolical influence.

Satan is not reluctant to use any lie or trick to have his way. Satan doesn't tempt by appearing as an evil looking monster, he tempts by speaking calmly. When Satan tells a lie, it's often told in a very polite, civil fashion. Satan can deceive through persuasion, not just brute force.

Satan loves people who want to suppress all conflict, all bold, plain speech, and to sweep disagreements under the rug if that's what it takes for everyone to "just get along". Such people can be his most useful yet unwitting tools.

I commend a quiet weekend reading The Screwtape Letters, for some interesting views into Satan's work by an author who is not hell bent on proving somebody else to be in Satan's thrall.  I've found that such reading is done best with an eye toward application to one's own life - not to somebody else's

Mike Bennett

Much of what I have learned about how Satan acts has come from the work of C. S. Lewis. When I read such works, I attempt to apply them to my own life. However, when I post in here, writing about my own personal struggles with avoiding the deceptions of the Great Deceiver would be as boring to others as writing about my sex life would.

That sure wasn't my experience reading The Screwtape Letters with a book group.  One person and then another would say, "That's so like me!" and say why, and others would agree that it was so like them.  I don't remember anybody ever saying, "Oh yeah, I know somebody else who's just like that!"  And we never talked about our sex lives that I recall.  Of all the times I've read The Screwtape Letters that time was probably the most beneficial, as well as interesting.

Mike Bennett

You missed my point. I also saw those same things in my own behaviour that you describe, at the time I was reading the books. But that was then and this is now. When I see actions being taken by large groups of people, sometimes those actions remind me of what I learned from those books.

As for talking about sex lives, I was merely pointing out that talking about any aspects of our own personal lives tend to bore others. That's true whether it is sex, our susceptibility to influences of the Great Liar, what our favorite type of underwear is, or how we interacted with our siblings. My point was almost all details of our personal lives bore others.

I did not in fact miss your point.

And I disagree about the "personal lives" thing.  Nobody wants or needs to know about my sex life, my gallbladder removal, or what foods give me gastric distress.  But hearing one person relate how certain occasions are tempting (or used by The Tempter) or what things have been helpful and why, can be interesting and useful to others.  We can generally tell when they stop being interesting or useful by being alert to glazed eyes, as in any other social situation.  Nobody can see the glazed eyes online, which is a reason why interaction and communication have their special challenges here.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Charles_Austin

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #257 on: November 25, 2009, 01:27:07 PM »
It was written:
My point was almost all details of our personal lives bore others.

I muse:
Maybe your life. Memoirists, biographers and historians, not to mention the tabloid press seriously disagree.

Richard Johnson

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #258 on: November 25, 2009, 01:40:23 PM »
It was written:
My point was almost all details of our personal lives bore others.

I muse:
Maybe your life. Memoirists, biographers and historians, not to mention the tabloid press seriously disagree.

Not to mention the inventors of Twitter!  ;D
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

peter_speckhard

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #259 on: November 25, 2009, 02:36:12 PM »
It was written:
My point was almost all details of our personal lives bore others.

I muse:
Maybe your life. Memoirists, biographers and historians, not to mention the tabloid press seriously disagree.
Somebody seriously disagrees with everything. If George said, "The holocaust was bad," you would probably point out that skin-heads, neo-Nazis, and Iranian fanatics seriously disagree. Most memoirs never get published because nobody in their right mind would read them, and those that do get published generally only generate interest because they provide insight into some public or famous character. Same with biographies. And historians are notoriously difficult to bore no matter how boring the subject matter. As for the tabloid press, they might disagree, but not seriously. It would all be an act.

Jonathan_Hall

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #260 on: November 25, 2009, 03:12:35 PM »
And if you want to discuss the Council of Nicaea, let me suggest some better sources than Harvey Cox:

Leo Donald Davis, The First Seven Ecumenical Councils
Ramsay MacMullen, Voting about God in Early Church Councils
RPC Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God
Aloys Grillmeier, Christ in Christian Tradition

Frankly, Wikipedia would probably be a better guide to Nicaea than Harvey Cox.

Hmmm... better sources than Harvey Cox?  Is such a thing possible?  Wait: Didn't Bp. Spong write something about Nicaea?  Surely Dan Brown mentioned Nicaea somewhere?  Those two are the only more reliable sources I can think of.

For those interested in the theology of Nicaea, you would want to check out Lewis Ayres, Nicaea and Its Legacy: An Approach to Fourth-Century Trinitarian Theology.

And did I hear someone compare the CWA to Nicaea?  Really?  Maybe it's time for a Forum Letter article: "How the Council of Nicaea Would Have Turned Out if the Bishops Were Replaced with the 2009 CWA Voting Members."  Or maybe, "How the 2009 CWA Would Have Looked if the Voting Members Were Replaced with the Bishops from the Council of Nicaea."

Alexander of Alexandria slowly climbed the stairs to the podium, bearing scars from years of oppression.  "I am so glad the persecution is over, and with my deacon, Athanasius (a person of color), we can publically declare...."

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #261 on: November 25, 2009, 03:32:05 PM »

I read the following this morning about the Council of Nicaea in Harvey Cox's The Future of Faith. He is not an anti-church author, but an ordained minister in the American Baptist Church and has taught at Harvard since 1965.

He's also not a historian.

Oops, yes he is. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1951 with a B.A. degree with honors in history. He went on to earn a B.D. degree from the Yale University Divinity School in 1955, and a Ph.D. degree in the history and philosophy of religion from Harvard University in 1963.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #262 on: November 25, 2009, 05:25:30 PM »

I read the following this morning about the Council of Nicaea in Harvey Cox's The Future of Faith. He is not an anti-church author, but an ordained minister in the American Baptist Church and has taught at Harvard since 1965.

He's also not a historian.

Oops, yes he is. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1951 with a B.A. degree with honors in history. He went on to earn a B.D. degree from the Yale University Divinity School in 1955, and a Ph.D. degree in the history and philosophy of religion from Harvard University in 1963.

I have a B.A. in Philosophy, summa cum laude. I'm not a philosopher.

Cox's teaching career has not been in the field of history, and few of his writings are in the field of history.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #263 on: November 25, 2009, 05:40:54 PM »
And did I hear someone compare the CWA to Nicaea?  Really?  Maybe it's time for a Forum Letter article: "How the Council of Nicaea Would Have Turned Out if the Bishops Were Replaced with the 2009 CWA Voting Members."  Or maybe, "How the 2009 CWA Would Have Looked if the Voting Members Were Replaced with the Bishops from the Council of Nicaea."

I hereby assign this to you. 800 words by Epiphany would be good.  ;)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #264 on: November 25, 2009, 06:59:19 PM »
"How the 2009 CWA Would Have Looked if the Voting Members Were Replaced with the Bishops from the Council of Nicaea."
What if it had only been the bishops of the ELCA?

Regarding Nicaea, it seems that whatever Constantine wanted, he got. So, how would he have voted?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #265 on: November 25, 2009, 07:03:33 PM »
"How the 2009 CWA Would Have Looked if the Voting Members Were Replaced with the Bishops from the Council of Nicaea."
What if it had only been the bishops of the ELCA?

Regarding Nicaea, it seems that whatever Constantine wanted, he got. So, how would he have voted?

What Constantine wanted was for the arguing to stop. He wanted everyone to "just get along". Constantine had no ulterior motive in getting a particular set of prohibitions from God's Law repealed. Therefore, there is no clear precedent from the Council of Nicea to indicate how Constantine would have voted at the CWA. It is impossible for anyone to know or even make an accurate prediction on that "what if" scenario.

vicarbob

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Re: New Lutheran body to be formed
« Reply #266 on: November 25, 2009, 09:15:38 PM »
Brothers you need to remember that Constantine referred to the Bishops as "gods", hence one of the widely used painting of the Council shows the bishops with halo's.