Author Topic: A bishop "deeply disappointed"  (Read 8043 times)

Dadoo

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2009, 08:41:16 AM »
Oh, Please, don't forget our RIC pushing, nothing has really changed, b Brauer-Rieke of Oregon.  Some of his sappy comments in a letter to the congregations:
B-R's words in quotes,  some individual quotes within my own personal comments, are also set off with quotation marks.

etc.

e to say, been there, done that over and over again.  Why do they want to talk to us now and have a lot of unity?  No one seemed to care before !!  I think it was sent to me, as I had talked to our interim pastor about some of my reservations.  Got the same old crock, "It won't affect us.....etc.".

Thank you, Ann, for this post. I continue to feel a certain sense of exasperation about CWA's decisions. There seems to have been little if any reflection prior to the assembly on the consequences by those who should have had all the answers. The bound conscience idea sounded good on paper but . . .

It is cliche to say so but there are a number of congregations out there that are very diverse as far as the thinking of their members are concerned.  Many of these have rather conservative pastors but also gay members. Go figure. I am thinking that if one holds to a Lutheran Law Gospel interpretation of life the universe and everything, then this is to be expected.

But how do you respect the conscience of that congregation? In good conscience its call committee might well want to call a pastor who is sensitive to GLBT (or is that LGBT today?) issues. THe result might however, be that they get a pastor who interprets that to mean: "They want me to make them RIC." Doing so, will obviously disrespect the conscience of a significant portion of the congregation and in the process move the proclamation from Law Gospel to inclusion/ acceptance/ endorsement.  Respect for conscience needs to be more than "we won't send the gay pastors." How will that happen. No one thought about it . . .
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Charles_Austin

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2009, 09:15:40 AM »
Ann writes:
Oh, Please, don't forget our RIC pushing, nothing has really changed, b Brauer-Rieke of Oregon. Some of his sappy comments in a letter to the congregations:
I comment:
No one has forced any congregation to do anything, have they? And is "sappy" a good way to refer to the comments of one of your pastors?

Ann writes (first quoting her bishop):
"Congregations have always had, and will continue to have, the authority to call or not call pastors as they feel led." (That is really nice, instead of the cwa saying GLBT pastors are equal to "hetero" pastors, all congregations will have to fight it out at the local level-gay or not gay...who decides, congregation, church council?  If it is such a great step forward, why allow some to opt out (or possibly only for a little while since b BR thinks it may be unworkable).
I point out:
Why should congregations "fight it out"? Each congregation can decide on its own, who it will call as pastor. Nothing has changed in that matter.

Ann writes:
Well, so far, my Nephew, on the Church Council, who brought up the actions of the cwa, thinking that the congregation should be informed, has been ridiculed, scolded by the Pastor, and of course, told that it would not make any difference in our church, as we would not have to have "one" if we did not want to.  Then the sermon three days later concerned lack of love and mentioned the council meeting, also, don't let sin win.....so much for speaking out concering the changing of scripture and historic Lutheran tradition. So much for bound conscience and respecting diversity of opinion.  Several other instances with our call committee, traditional members called "looney" and other vitrolic comments emailed to them...they are VERY polite ladies who were targeted and were certainly taken aback and very saddened by this attack
I note:
As has been frequently stated in these forums, second-hand and third-hand hearsay information is not always useful for discussion.

Ann writes:
Oh, yes, I was mailed from the church office, a four page "ad type" publication from the synod office extolling the virtues of the cwa and how WONDERFUL the event was, from ten of the voting members from Oregon.  I and my grieving "bound conscience" certainly felt better after reading that..lots of unity and love and let's be in conversation etc.  We would like to say, been there, done that over and over again.  Why do they want to talk to us now and have a lot of unity?  No one seemed to care before !!  I think it was sent to me, as I had talked to our interim pastor about some of my reservations.  Got the same old crock, "It won't affect us.....etc.".
I note:
You should keep talking with your pastor and not dismiss everything he or she says as the "same old crock." It might help relieve some of the anger that colors your comments.

JEdwards

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2009, 10:09:34 AM »
Ann writes:
Well, so far, my Nephew, on the Church Council, who brought up the actions of the cwa, thinking that the congregation should be informed, has been ridiculed, scolded by the Pastor, and of course, told that it would not make any difference in our church, as we would not have to have "one" if we did not want to.  Then the sermon three days later concerned lack of love and mentioned the council meeting, also, don't let sin win.....so much for speaking out concering the changing of scripture and historic Lutheran tradition. So much for bound conscience and respecting diversity of opinion.  Several other instances with our call committee, traditional members called "looney" and other vitrolic comments emailed to them...they are VERY polite ladies who were targeted and were certainly taken aback and very saddened by this attack
I note:
As has been frequently stated in these forums, second-hand and third-hand hearsay information is not always useful for discussion.
Charles, there are some interesting parallels between this debate and the creationism/evolution debate, and you seem to have adopted the epistemology of the creationists.  Ann and others have advanced a thesis that can be roughly summarized as:  "Many leaders in the ELCA would ultimately like to marginalize those who oppose same-sex behavior."  Like the theory of evolution, this is a thesis that is unlikely to be verified by a single, irrefutable, "smoking gun" observation, but it synthesizes a multitude of "micro-observations" of varying degrees of reliability, and, while it does not explain every observation, no fatal contrary evidence has been identified.  It makes some general, long-range predictions that are difficult to verify within a specified time period.  Perhaps the Creation Institute would be willing to employ you to point out that no one has ever called an ape "Grandma," that thousands of observations of the development of antibiotic resistance might all be compromised by contamination of one of the petri dishes, that "some" scholars of biology have endorsed Intelligent Design, that unless you have directly verified the results of a scientific experiment, the peer-reviewed publication is only "hearsay", that the scientific community should not be so dismissive of Michael Behe, but should continue to "listen", etc.

Jon

Charles_Austin

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2009, 01:08:57 PM »
I have no idea what Jon is talking about in that last post!  ???

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2009, 05:15:51 PM »
GLBT (or is that LGBT today?)


Ladies first....
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

G.Edward

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2009, 09:52:24 PM »
GLBT (or is that LGBT today?)


Ladies first....

That doesn't help me.  Who's the lady in the LGBT construction?

Charles_Austin

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2009, 09:59:50 PM »
Gregory Davidson writes:
That doesn't help me.  Who's the lady in the LGBT construction?
I repond:
Oh, dear.

G.Edward

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2009, 10:06:34 PM »
Gregory Davidson writes:
That doesn't help me.  Who's the lady in the LGBT construction?
I repond:
Oh, dear.

Exactly.  Aren't those traditional categories up for grabs as well?  Don't the changes in official church policy and teaching add to the erosion of traditional understandings of many areas in society?  When is it 'prophetic' for the church to stand against the prevailing culture and say, "No" ?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2009, 02:14:34 AM »
Gregory Davidson writes:
That doesn't help me.  Who's the lady in the LGBT construction?
I repond:
Oh, dear.

Exactly.  Aren't those traditional categories up for grabs as well?  Don't the changes in official church policy and teaching add to the erosion of traditional understandings of many areas in society?  When is it 'prophetic' for the church to stand against the prevailing culture and say, "No" ?
I look forward to the language of "publicly accountable, life-long, monogamous" relationships strengthening our position on what marriages should be. Too many of our folks do not consider marriages to be life-long or monogamous. I see this as a step to help us stop the erosion of the traditional understanding of marriage.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Keith Falk

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Re: A bishop "deeply disappointed"
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2009, 09:00:56 AM »
Gregory Davidson writes:
That doesn't help me.  Who's the lady in the LGBT construction?
I repond:
Oh, dear.

Exactly.  Aren't those traditional categories up for grabs as well?  Don't the changes in official church policy and teaching add to the erosion of traditional understandings of many areas in society?  When is it 'prophetic' for the church to stand against the prevailing culture and say, "No" ?
I look forward to the language of "publicly accountable, life-long, monogamous" relationships strengthening our position on what marriages should be. Too many of our folks do not consider marriages to be life-long or monogamous. I see this as a step to help us stop the erosion of the traditional understanding of marriage.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA... thanks for the laugh on this dreary Wednesday morning
Rev. Keith Falk, STS