Author Topic: The Lutheran Study Bible  (Read 21989 times)

James Gustafson

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #180 on: November 05, 2009, 10:20:39 AM »
Mr. Thompson,  I think it it is self evident to everyone but you that you are receiving a calling from the Spirit for this mission in Christ, and in faithfulness that the Lord can provide, I look forward to purchasing and reading your finished product  ;)


In project research, I've used the scoring system they describe, having spent many hours reading with children at one of our Lutheran schools and performing evaluations on Bible texts. The idea that the NIV text is an easier text for early readers is common. But it is not supported by the research or by my experience in working with children. As I recall, the translations score about the same, with ESV coming in at a slightly more readable level. As evidence, I would also point out that Zondervan has come out with many special editions for lowering the reading level of their NIV translation.

That being said, I would add that the Bible is essentially a book for adults. Presenting it to children is a challenge and a special art, especially if you want to balance faithfulness with readability.

Rev. Engelbrecht:

Thanks for the reply! 

The age group I was thinking about (the one I deal with mostly these days) is the 3rd grade and younger group ("young readers") which I agree is a tough one to balance between faithfulness and readability, particularly when kids can get "hung up" on words that we don't think are terribly important (for example, the musical instruments in the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego).

Our congregation has been using various children's bibles - I can't speak to why they chose what they did - each of them with their own shortcomings.  (Like the Zondervan kids books that ask "What should we do to please God?", etc. that hint at understandings of Scripture that aren't Lutheran.)

If I could quietly float a discussion topic around the halls of CPH, I'd love to see projects that take the thoroughness of The Lutheran Study Bible and extract children's materials:  the "Law Gospel Notes" in particular really get at the meat of the issues presented in the Bible stories that could be used to "frame" lessons for children.  For example, the notes for Genesis 32 (God wrestles with Jacob) frames the chapter in terms of both Christ's suffering and our own struggles.

(Maybe we need more "Christ Centered" presentations of the OT stories for children?)

Just a few thoughts....

Iowegian

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2009, 10:33:54 AM »
Mr. Thompson,  I think it it is self evident to everyone but you that you are receiving a calling from the Spirit for this mission in Christ, and in faithfulness that the Lord can provide, I look forward to purchasing and reading your finished product  ;)

However, I fully acknowledge the limitations of my own gifts in the interest of not exposing our children to Biblical writing that reads like Stereo instructions.  ;-)

[Let's not start on illustrations... LOL.  "Look at how brave stick figure David is!"]

peter_speckhard

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #182 on: November 05, 2009, 12:15:02 PM »
Mr. Thompson,  I think it it is self evident to everyone but you that you are receiving a calling from the Spirit for this mission in Christ, and in faithfulness that the Lord can provide, I look forward to purchasing and reading your finished product  ;)

However, I fully acknowledge the limitations of my own gifts in the interest of not exposing our children to Biblical writing that reads like Stereo instructions.  ;-)

[Let's not start on illustrations... LOL.  "Look at how brave stick figure David is!"]
If the language of stereo instructions is so horrible for children, how come they're the only ones who can make most digital gadgetry work? If my confirmation kids could understand any Bible translation as easily as they understand techno-gibberish, I'd be a happy purchaser of said translation.

luthersterotypicus

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #183 on: November 05, 2009, 02:38:10 PM »
v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

Now what do you think?

I reconciled v. 21 and 22. Your turn. Or are you suggesting v. 21 "turned all the water" meant something different?

I don't think that you did reconcile v. 21 and 22. In v. 21, you say Moses and Aaron turned all the water to blood, in a very literal sense; but in v. 22, where the Bible says the magicians of Egypt did "the same thing," you reduce that to claiming that it means they "turned" the water red by pointing to what Moses had already done. That isn't a reconciliation as much as a choice that the same words mean one thing in v. 21, something different in v. 22. The Bible makes no such distinction between the two actions, and I'd like to know where you get yours.

Peace,
Michael

You are right. The Bible does not reconcile the two veses. That's what I love about the Bible. Not sure how to reconcile them either but going out of the box. Offer a new box. Or just skip over it and head to vs. 23. What does Lenski say?

Mike Bennett

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #184 on: November 05, 2009, 03:05:15 PM »

If I could quietly float a discussion topic around the halls of CPH, I'd love to see projects that take the thoroughness of The Lutheran Study Bible and extract children's materials:  the "Law Gospel Notes" in particular really get at the meat of the issues presented in the Bible stories that could be used to "frame" lessons for children.  For example, the notes for Genesis 32 (God wrestles with Jacob) frames the chapter in terms of both Christ's suffering and our own struggles.

(Maybe we need more "Christ Centered" presentations of the OT stories for children?)

Just a few thoughts....

If such a project were to be undertaken, I suggert working with TLSB at one elbow and Egermeier's Bible Story Book at the other, working to produce a book with the clarity and readability of the latter and the doctrinal content of the former.  Egermeier's was first published in 1923, was read to my brothers and me as kids in the 1940s and 1950s, and is still in print.  It is appealing and understandable to kids while being very faithful to the Scriptural text.  Actually I don't know that it needs to be replaced even now, but at age 86 one would think its days might be numbered as a children's Bible story book.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Mike Bennett

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #185 on: November 05, 2009, 03:08:23 PM »


I don't think that you did reconcile v. 21 and 22. In v. 21, you say Moses and Aaron turned all the water to blood, in a very literal sense; but in v. 22, where the Bible says the magicians of Egypt did "the same thing," you reduce that to claiming that it means they "turned" the water red by pointing to what Moses had already done. That isn't a reconciliation as much as a choice that the same words mean one thing in v. 21, something different in v. 22. The Bible makes no such distinction between the two actions, and I'd like to know where you get yours.

Peace,
Michael

You are right. The Bible does not reconcile the two veses. That's what I love about the Bible. Not sure how to reconcile them either but going out of the box. Offer a new box. Or just skip over it and head to vs. 23. What does Lenski say?

Did Lenski do OT commentaries?  Is Logos holding out on me?

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Michael Slusser

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #186 on: November 06, 2009, 09:33:11 AM »
You are right. The Bible does not reconcile the two veses. That's what I love about the Bible.

I heartily agree with you on that.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

mariemeyer

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #187 on: November 06, 2009, 09:54:09 AM »
"Marie, I'd very interested in what TLSB notes would say had you been in charge of the comments on Ephesians 5. Not in all kinds of detail, but just in general and in rough draft format, how would you improve it?"  

Peter, The issue is not how I would improve the study notes. It’s theTLSB study notes, particularly the use and content of one page essays placed within the text of God’s Word.

 “Sub-Lutheran” is the term Pr. Paul Hinlicky, former editor of Lutheran Forum, used in his review of the 1985 CTCR report, "Women in the Church."  Might the same be said of TLSB notes on Ephesians 5:22? The reader is directed to the essay Men and Women in the Church thereby linking the submission of a wife to her husband with the relationship of men and women in the church. Following the trail of notes, the basis of submission for a wife to her husband and for women in the church is the place God gave wives in the order or creation. The creation of Adam before Eve is said to “reinforce the order of creation” as does the designation of woman as "helper."  The essay  The Lord of Hosts   then reminds the reader that Christians have no right to criticize how God placed men and woman in the created order.

TLSC essays assure women that Christianity honors them as equal members of the Christian community, encourages women to study the Scriptures and gives women permission to work outside the home. However, the submission of wives and the command that women be silent in the church both have deep roots in the Biblical revelation. Women who may be unhappy about their submission role or their place in the order of creation will, as God’s new creation, delight in God’s order. “It is the Gospel that provides the motivation for men and women to joyfully to take their appointed places in God’s order, especially in the church.”

Are the notes and essays“Sub-Lutheran?”  To answer that one must explore whether Luther thought of God’s order as one where women and men have appointed places in relation to each other. A one page essay can’t possibly address the question, unless one has the answer before a thorough study of how Luther understood a Theology of Glory and natural human reason.  The THSB essay on The Lord of Hosts leans heavily in the direction of a Theology of Glory understanding of God’s order in marriage and for men and women in the church. When understood according to Luther’s Theology of the Cross, Christ is Bridegroom who did not stay in His rightful place, but submitted himself to our need for a Savior. He submitted himself in a way that is contrary to what mankind considers “natural” for the Lord of Hosts. Thus, submission is hardly a role for wives or that of a woman’s place in the order of creation.  

Might the TLSB  misuse Scripture to associate husbands and men with a role and placement in the order of creation that is counter to how Christ made no claim to his rightful natural place in the order of creation? Human husbands and men, like human wives and women, are the harlot for whom Christ surrendered all claim to an appointed place in God’s created order. If Christ submitted himself so that men and woman might be His faithful Bride and presence on earth, on what basis does TLSB conclude submission is the role of the wife? Think of it, Christ, the Heavenly Bridegroom, placed himself in submission to human husbands who were an unfaithful harlot in relation to The Lord of Hosts.  

The introductory remarks to TLSB, Reading, Understanding and Applying the Bible focus on Law and Gospel as that which identify God’s ways with mankind. I see no reference to Luther’s insight into how aTheology of Glory is counter to The Theology of the Cross.  The Law is a sword that pierces a Theology of Glory understanding of God’s order for human relationships that is in any way counter to how God, in the person of Jesus, the Christ, took his place as a servant in submission to a faithless harlot.  The Law, taken in its fullness, exposes how it is possible for Christians to recognize that the Law and the Gospel are distinct while at the same time they interpret Scripture with the mindset of a Theology of Glory.  

If I am in any way misrepresenting TLSB, or fail to understand the notes and essays, I am open to being corrected by those who have for more theological training than I do.

Marie Meyer

peter_speckhard

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #188 on: November 06, 2009, 02:20:46 PM »
Marie, you seem to be saying that the Bible should be published entirely without comment of any kind or else it must be published with exhaustive commentary on every theological issue. I think a Bible with explanatory footnotes and some inserted little essays is an okay idea and probably quite helpful, and I think TLSB, though I haven't looked at it as closely as you have in this regard, does a pretty decent job (and not at all "sub-Lutheran") with Eph. 5. And I think you've turned things around in your analysis of Christ's submission. As I see it, servanthood takes two forms-- sacrifice and submission, which are the ways Christian servants interact and are the two commands given to husbands and wives specifically, under the rubric of being imitators of God. Christ's self-sacrifice was for sinful humanity. His submission was to God the Father, to whom He prayed "neverthless, not my will, but Thy will be done," prior to His arrest and crucifixion. He didn't submit to you and me; He sacrificed Himself for us. To say He submitted to our need for His sacrifice is merely play with words and concepts, as though the Good Samaritan submitted to the helpless victim. We are imitators of God in selflessness when we imitate Christ in either self-sacrifice or submission depending upon the situation and vocation.

mariemeyer

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #189 on: November 06, 2009, 04:20:50 PM »
"Marie, you seem to be saying that the Bible should be published entirely without comment of any kind or else it must be published with exhaustive commentary on every theological issue."

If that's what I seem to be saying, let me be more clear.  I own and use a variety of study Bibles.  The TLSB is unique, at least in its notes related to men and women in the church, in how it follows a circular path directing the reader to notes and essays that begin where they end. God's order of creation has to do with Adam first, then Eve. It's all about the sequence of creation. Being first implies haveing an assigned position in the order of creation. Adam and Eve differed in that one was first and the other was second. The concluding word is, "If you don't accept what the notes say about an order where Adam has the role of being first and Eve the role of his helper, you are being critical of God."

Exhastive commentary - not really. For example, the notes on Genesis 2: 18 conclude that the term helper as applied to the woman confirms that Adam is the more responsible party in the order of creation.  A quick check of how the term is used in Scripture does not lead to the conclusion that the one being helped is the more responsible party. The note does connect the term with "assistant" or "ally" and acknowledges that Scipture refers to God as our helper.  If God is our helper, that is to say we are the ones being helped, on what basis can the notes claim Adam, the one being helped, is the more responsible party.

In regard to servanthood, sacrifice, submission... I may not understand what you are saying.  It sounds as if the servanthood, sacrifice and submisson of Christ which we are to imitate, takes a different form according to whether we are male or female.

Perhaps I should have said Christ subordinated himself for us rather than that he submitted to himself - that is to say he did not stay in His place as Lood of Hosts but placed himself in a lower position that wass his rightful place.   St. Peter had a hard time allowing Jesus to submit to Peter's need to have his feet washed. I submit Jesus submitted himself to St. Peter, to you and to me in ways that we cannot comprehend because it so goes against our thoughts of God.  The sacrifice of Jesus for you and for me began with the incanation when He gave up all claim his rightful place as Lord of Hosts.

At the heart of TLSB is the idea that husband and wife; man and woman can't change places in the order of creation. One of them has to always be first. Christ, regained His rightful place as first in our lives, not by clinging to or protecting it, but by becoming the last Adam from whom a new Creation, a holy people,  a faithful wife could be formed. 

There is an alternative to no notes and exhaustive studies.  It has to do with testng all conclusions with the nature and Character of God as revealed in the written and incarnate Word.

Marie

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #190 on: November 06, 2009, 06:03:55 PM »
If the "sequence" of creation dictates an order of rank, then I (male human that I am) must submit to grasshoppers. In fact, I must submit to everything, except female humans. In such a surpressed state that I am in, they had best "watch out."

Peace, JOHN HANNAH
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #191 on: November 08, 2009, 08:29:15 PM »
About 2000 years ago, I did a word study on "helper."  First, it is a term used of God (viz. "our God our Help in ages past), in Isaiah and other passages.  Which is then NOT a subordinate or less responsible slot.  Second, the local gods all had consorts who were ranked right there with them in the old fertility cult logica that "it takes two to tango."  So there was a Baal bull and an Asherah pole cheek by jowl, so to speak, in those Canaanite towns.

Dave Benke

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #192 on: November 08, 2009, 11:00:26 PM »
Going back to the original kudos that started the thread --

I just got my copy this past week and used it for our "minor prophets" study on Obediah and Jonah today.  Very nice thus far!  I love the chronology bar at the top and the side bar giving a summary of the book - including the main gospel application and law application.  The notes were good, but not exhaustive (pastors will still need several other reference books to teach a decent class, but they are still not bad).  Cross references were useful and on par with the NASB.  The additional maps ("additional" from the NIV study Bible I was given at my confirmation) were also very good. 

I have not had the time to investigate some of the concerns mentioned on this thread (and with a study on Obediah, who could blame me!), but overall, it seems like real quality material. 
Soli Deo Gloria!

LutherMan

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #193 on: November 08, 2009, 11:06:59 PM »
Quote
I have not had the time to investigate some of the concerns mentioned on this thread (and with a study on Obediah, who could blame me!), but overall, it seems like real quality material.

Thanks, Pr. Jagow  That is helpful for an old Lutheran who awaits the larger print version.  I love studying minor prophets,  Can't wait to read Michah.

revjagow

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Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
« Reply #194 on: November 09, 2009, 11:05:25 AM »
Quote
I have not had the time to investigate some of the concerns mentioned on this thread (and with a study on Obediah, who could blame me!), but overall, it seems like real quality material.

Thanks, Pr. Jagow  That is helpful for an old Lutheran who awaits the larger print version.  I love studying minor prophets,  Can't wait to read Michah.

...or that Italian prophet - Malachi (mah-la-chee)  ;D
Soli Deo Gloria!