The Lutheran Study Bible

[Michael Slusser]

v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

[luthersterotypicus]

v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

Now what do you think?

I reconciled v. 21 and 22. Your turn. Or are you suggesting v. 21 "turned all the water" meant something different?

[vicarbob]

OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages?
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

[ghp]

OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages?
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

The paper in the regular print edition is consistent with what I've seen in other Bibles (e.g., what I've got on my bookshelf, like my NKJV Thompson's Chain Ref Study Bible). It's thin, indeed. That's why I willingly upgraded to the larger print edition, despite the extra heft of that edition -- the paper is much nicer, IMO.

[Michael Slusser]

v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

Now what do you think?

I reconciled v. 21 and 22. Your turn. Or are you suggesting v. 21 "turned all the water" meant something different?

I don't think that you did reconcile v. 21 and 22. In v. 21, you say Moses and Aaron turned all the water to blood, in a very literal sense; but in v. 22, where the Bible says the magicians of Egypt did "the same thing," you reduce that to claiming that it means they "turned" the water red by pointing to what Moses had already done. That isn't a reconciliation as much as a choice that the same words mean one thing in v. 21, something different in v. 22. The Bible makes no such distinction between the two actions, and I'd like to know where you get yours.

Peace,
Michael

[olarmy02]

OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages?
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

The paper in the regular print edition is consistent with what I've seen in other Bibles (e.g., what I've got on my bookshelf, like my NKJV Thompson's Chain Ref Study Bible). It's thin, indeed. That's why I willingly upgraded to the larger print edition, despite the extra heft of that edition -- the paper is much nicer, IMO.

I just got my copy.  I bought the regular print hardback.  Overall I am impressed!  It is my first choice among my library of study bibles.  Fortunately at 35y.o. I still have better than 20/20 vision otherwise the print might be a touch too small.  I might have to upgrade to the large print later, but the content is great!  Good job to all that worked on it.  Is there an e-version of this?

[Iowegian]

My Anklage is that Lutheran stuff seems in general to be designed class-wise for the educated, and therefore elitist.  The Readers' Edition BOC is, to me an effort to address that in terms of the confessions.  Whatever one thinks of the scholarship and ideological positions taken in the book itself, the effort in my opinion is needed. 

Same would apply in terms of Bibles.  Now - a couple years from now the folks in the Adult Instruction units I'm teaching will hopefully be placed to read the information in LSB, so I may present them with one as they make their affirmation of faith.  But on the way to that day, I'm using ABS materials.

This is something I've noticed that's even boiling down to Sunday School/Children's materials:  both CPH and A-F are offering some products marketed as "Chlidren's Materials" that rely on NRSV or ESV translations, which is a pretty tough reading level for kids of that age.

I would hope that the CPH Lutheran Study Bible will inspire a few 'derivative works' aimed at younger or less-experience readers, but I don't know how that jives with copyright issues and the ESV.  (Pr. McCain noted elsewhere that some of the things people have noted about the "Lutheran Study Bible" in terms of marketing and use come from licensing issues with Crossway Publishing - they don't want CPH producing materials that would be direct competitors of their own, such as naming the Bible "The Lutheran Study Bible" instead of other names - or including the "ESV" name -  because Crossway produced "The ESV Study Bible".  I'm sure similar issues will exist with other materials.)

Back to children's materials - our congregation has been using story bibles from the "Zondervan Kids" line that include some unfortunate material that thankfully the Sunday School curriculum skips.  It is a little troubling, though, to read one of the stories with your kids and have to explain around the questions added to the stories like I found last night - What should we do to please God? included with stories taken from the OT.  (There's a careful line to walk there.)

[mariemeyer]

Now that Bill and I have the new Lutheran Study Bible I attempted to navigate notes regarding the husband/wife relationship and the relationship of men and women in the church. I followed the notes on Ephesians 5:22 carefully. If there are errors in what I copied they are due to my becoming somewhat confused as I flipped from note to note and tried to follow how or why the marriage relationship was applicable to all men and women in the church.   

Since the study Bible uses the ESV translation, the text separates vs. 21 from vs. 22-24. The study notes on verses 1-21 omit any reference Paul's directive in 21, "submitting to one another out of reference to Christ."

The notes on 22 begin, "Submission is not mutual, but appropriate to each relationship.  Within the marriage relationship, the wife 'submits,' taking the place God has given her (I Peter 3:1-6).   

There follows directives that send the reader to texts and from there to still other notes. "See notes on Genesis 1:26-28, I Tim. 2:13, Ti. 2:5., "see also page 1904, as to the Lord,. She is to view her husband as an image and representative of Christ. See p. 1972. "

In following the directives the reader will understand why the mutual submission of Ephesians does not apply to marriage.

Directive 1: a Notes on Genesis state that man and woman are in the image of God, "yet there is a great difference between the sexes." 

Directive 1, b: . Notes on I Timothy:13 state... For, "What follows is an explanation of the prohibition given in v 11-12.  Adam was formed first. God ordained the roles of men and women at creation. Adam was created first and was given specific service (Gn 2:15). Eve was then created (Gn 2:21-22) as a worthy, compatible mate (see note Gn 2:18). This did not mean men are more important than women (Eph 5:22-33), but that God established different callings for them.The relationship between husbands and wives (I Cor 11:3, Eph.5:23-24),  set in place before the fall into sin, remains unchanged today. Thus the commands and prohibitions concerning men and women in this passage are not simply reflections of first century Jewish culture or Paul's personal opinions. Paul roots the practices of the Church is God's created order. See page 1291."   

Page 1291 is a one page essay on The Lord of Hosts and "the order of creation."  The essay concludes, "Resisting God's order in creation is like resisting gravity. ..Share the truths about God's good order and blessing with others. True wisdom works with the order God established (see pp 775-78) which the Heavenly Father provided through His Beloved Son, our Savior (John 1: 1-5).

Directive 1, c:  Notes on Ti 2:5 state, "Women are not prohibited from working outside their home but should be industrious at home in the family context. Cf Pr 31 10-31 for an example to follow and I Tim 5:13-14 for an example to avoid. submissive see notes Eph. 5:21, 22."

Directive 1, d  "see also one page 1904, as to the Lord. 
(Note: When I read page 1904 I was unable to find anything on the page that directed wives to see their husband as an image and representative of Christ.)

Directive 2. See p. 1972. P 1972 is a one page essay, Men and Women in the Church.  Since "the Greco-Roman culture of Paul's day frequently allowed women a leading role in religious rites, apostolic prohibitions on women were 'counter cultural.'"  The reader is reminded that in the church God established an order which we are not to criticize.  Men and women have their "appointed places"  "Thus Paul's command that women be silent in the church (I Cor. 14: 34) must be understood, in part, as countercultural and antisyncrestic. It is a command that distinguishes and separates the Christian church from other religions. Inspired by the Spirit of God, its roots are deep in the biblical revelation, which runs counter to the spirit and wisdom of the world....The Gospel provided the motivation for men and women joyfully to take their appointed places in God's order, especially in the church."

The one page essay refers the reader to the CPH Commentary on I Cor and other notes in the Lutheran Study Bible.

Following the above sequence on Ephesians 5:22 is, to sat the least. a challenge.  IMO they also reflect as bit of circular reasoning.

Marie Meyer



 

[Harvey_Mozolak]

Marie,  and the notes somehow read with more certainty, application, explanation and implication than the Scripture text...   Harvey Mozolak

[ghp]

OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages?
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

The paper in the regular print edition is consistent with what I've seen in other Bibles (e.g., what I've got on my bookshelf, like my NKJV Thompson's Chain Ref Study Bible). It's thin, indeed. That's why I willingly upgraded to the larger print edition, despite the extra heft of that edition -- the paper is much nicer, IMO.

I just got my copy.  I bought the regular print hardback.  Overall I am impressed!  It is my first choice among my library of study bibles.  Fortunately at 35y.o. I still have better than 20/20 vision otherwise the print might be a touch too small.  I might have to upgrade to the large print later, but the content is great!  Good job to all that worked on it.  Is there an e-version of this?

IIRC, there are plans afoot for an electronic version (most likely in Logos/Libronix format, along with some sort of iPhone version as well) sometime in 2010. Specific details, though, have yet to emerge from McCain's basement bunker... 

[revjagow]

Since the study Bible uses the ESV translation, the text separates vs. 21 from vs. 22-24. The study notes on verses 1-21 omit any reference Paul's directive in 21, "submitting to one another out of reference to Christ."

The notes on 22 begin, "Submission is not mutual, but appropriate to each relationship.  Within the marriage relationship, the wife 'submits,' taking the place God has given her (I Peter 3:1-6).   

That's odd - if I recall, in the Greek- verse 22 does not even contain the word "submit" - it just reads "wives to your husbands" or something along those lines.  The word "submit" is assumed from the previous verse, so of course the two verses are connected (and that should be noted in the notes, I think).  Paul's primary goal is not to write about marriage in that section, but marriage is one example used in order to teach on the church and how we relate to one another - 4:1 - 6:9 is all about unity in the church.  5:1 &2 builds on Paul's teaching by introducing the thought "walk in love" and 5:1 - 6:9 is illustrating how we walk in love toward God and toward each other.

I understand why translators would put in a paragraph break.  Not because it starts a new section, but it does begin a new thought (translations that have a heading indicating a new theme drive me batty because from the text, the thought of "submission" is supposed to be carried through - the next three thoughts are connected to "walk in love" from 5:2).  Paul throws out the word "submission" to describe how we are to walk in love (the thought that begins with 5:1) and then writes how this works out in the life of the church by using illustrations from life, like husband/wife, parents/children and slaves/masters - each of those thoughts should start a new paragraph, even though they are all connected to verse 21.  Those are three different relationships with three different kinds of mutual submitting going on, but they are all examples of how we "walk in love" with each other. 

I agree with the note when it says there is a different kind of submitting in different kinds of relationships (marriage, master/slave, etc.), but I disagree that all submission is not mutual.  Verse 21 is connected to all the relationships Paul mentions and I would argue that submission is meant to be mutual in each one of them.  I would be more comfortable if the note were followed with another sentence that says something like - in Christ, all the baptized submit to one another and walk in love with one another regardless of gender, race, class, etc. - or something that puts the whole section in context.  Maybe that's already there in the introductory notes to the book of Ephesians, but since I just ordered my copy of TLSB last week,  so I'll have to wait a bit to check it out.

[peter_speckhard]

"Submit to one another" is a general command to Christians. Within the framework of Christianity, then, there are examples. It would be as though it said "Pay what you owe. Customers, pay for your purchases. Store owners, make sure you give the full amount for what you receive..." In other words, paying what you owe is the general Christian principle and gets applied equally but differently to Christian customers and Christian shopkeepers, neither of whom is more important in any given transaction. Submitting to one another is the general, Christian behavior. Wives submitting to husbands is no different than children submitting to parents-- they are both examples of the "submit to one another" principle in action among Christians. That, it seems to me, is what the paragraph break between vs. 21 and 22 seeks to make clear. It isn't saying that parents and children should submit equally to each other, nor is it saying wives and husbands should submit equally to each other. It is saying that our various vocations offer different applications of the same principle.

Marie, I'd very interested in what TLSB notes would say had you been in charge of the comments on Ephesians 5. Not in all kinds of detail, but just in general and in rough draft format, how would you improve it? 

[Edward Engelbrecht]

This is something I've noticed that's even boiling down to Sunday School/Children's materials:  both CPH and A-F are offering some products marketed as "Chlidren's Materials" that rely on NRSV or ESV translations, which is a pretty tough reading level for kids of that age.

Dear Chad,

Please find below a link to a page about the ESV readability rating, which is very helpful.

http://www.esv.org/blog/2005/08/readability-grade-levels/

In project research, I've used the scoring system they describe, having spent many hours reading with children at one of our Lutheran schools and performing evaluations on Bible texts. The idea that the NIV text is an easier text for early readers is common. But it is not supported by the research or by my experience in working with children. As I recall, the translations score about the same, with ESV coming in at a slightly more readable level. As evidence, I would also point out that Zondervan has come out with many special editions for lowering the reading level of their NIV translation.

That being said, I would add that the Bible is essentially a book for adults. Presenting it to children is a challenge and a special art, especially if you want to balance faithfulness with readability.

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
CPH Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

[Iowegian]

In project research, I've used the scoring system they describe, having spent many hours reading with children at one of our Lutheran schools and performing evaluations on Bible texts. The idea that the NIV text is an easier text for early readers is common. But it is not supported by the research or by my experience in working with children. As I recall, the translations score about the same, with ESV coming in at a slightly more readable level. As evidence, I would also point out that Zondervan has come out with many special editions for lowering the reading level of their NIV translation.

That being said, I would add that the Bible is essentially a book for adults. Presenting it to children is a challenge and a special art, especially if you want to balance faithfulness with readability.

Rev. Engelbrecht:

Thanks for the reply! 

The age group I was thinking about (the one I deal with mostly these days) is the 3rd grade and younger group ("young readers") which I agree is a tough one to balance between faithfulness and readability, particularly when kids can get "hung up" on words that we don't think are terribly important (for example, the musical instruments in the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego).

Our congregation has been using various children's bibles - I can't speak to why they chose what they did - each of them with their own shortcomings.  (Like the Zondervan kids books that ask "What should we do to please God?", etc. that hint at understandings of Scripture that aren't Lutheran.)

If I could quietly float a discussion topic around the halls of CPH, I'd love to see projects that take the thoroughness of The Lutheran Study Bible and extract children's materials:  the "Law Gospel Notes" in particular really get at the meat of the issues presented in the Bible stories that could be used to "frame" lessons for children.  For example, the notes for Genesis 32 (God wrestles with Jacob) frames the chapter in terms of both Christ's suffering and our own struggles.

(Maybe we need more "Christ Centered" presentations of the OT stories for children?)

Just a few thoughts....

[Brian Stoffregen]

That's odd - if I recall, in the Greek- verse 22 does not even contain the word "submit" - it just reads "wives to your husbands" or something along those lines.  The word "submit" is assumed from the previous verse, so of course the two verses are connected (and that should be noted in the notes, I think).  Paul's primary goal is not to write about marriage in that section, but marriage is one example used in order to teach on the church and how we relate to one another - 4:1 - 6:9 is all about unity in the church.

You are right about v. 22 containing no verb. In fact, one has to go back to v. 18 for the main verb -- otherwise they are all participles in vv. 19-21. It can be diagrammed as:

Be filled with the Spirit (an imperative verb, i.e., a command)
     speaking ...
     singing and praising ...
     giving thanks ...
     submitting ...
          wives to their own husbands ...

"Submitting" like the other actions are dependent upon "be filled with the Spirit" (rather than "get drunk with wine"). The translations that make "Submit" or "Be subject" a command and/or separate v. 21 from what goes before (e.g., NRSV & NIV) lose the connection that I think is clear in the Greek. (ESV keeps the string of participles together.) What is harder to express in English and with paragraphs is the idea that "wives to their own husbands" is dependent upon "submitting to one another," which is dependent on the command, "Be filled with the Spirit".