The Lutheran Study Bible

[Harvey_Mozolak]

And if someone believes that each of the plagues was caused by God causing some natural phenomenon to occur, perhaps in larger quantities than usual….   I thought I was taught in the olden days that the Nile was turned into blood.  Loveliness of commentaries again.  Interesting.  Is it because God couldn’t do such a thing or just that so much blood is a blood bank unthinkable or maybe that it is unnecessary when you have algae standing by seasonally… but then the moon doesn’t have any water to turn reddish (at least not yet discovered) and what of other red presences or transubstantiations?   A holy hmmmm, as I call them.  Harvey Mozolak

Can someone who owns the Bible please explain to me what the Great "The" Lutheran Study Bible Twitter/Facebook Dustup of '09 is about?  Supposedly the note on Exodus 7:17 is chock full o' heresy?

Wasn't aware of the twittering debate, but the note compares the Nile being turned into blood with Joel 2:31 where the moon is turned into blood.  I'm guessing it uses this indicate that biblical language sometimes is figurally and not literally and then says: "...thus it was not a chemical change into real blood, but a change in appearance, possibly because of red algae."

So there you go.

[Jeremy Loesch]

We received our order the second week of October and dedicated them during the service on Oct. 11.  Following that service I presented a 'how-to' regarding TLSB.  All the people who ordered Bibles (17 people ordered 20 Bibles) stayed for the presentation as well as 3 who are still deliberating.  I was pleased with the presentation because a lot of the members are unfamiliar with study Bibles.  My fear was that if I handed them their TLSB and said "Have at it!" they might have been a little intimidated with all the stuff inside.  I pointed all the material in the reference section, the various essays, the concordance, transliteration guide, and then spent a good bit of time using John's Gospel as an example of what each book is like- the introduction, sidebar material, the text above the line and the study notes below, the icons.  It was good.  And I bought hi-liters from Staples for each person who bought a Bible as a present for them. 

Very pleased that all the people in my weekly morning and Sunday morning Bible class bought TLSBs.  Now I have my work cut out for me!  (But it is joyful work!)

I think a couple more people will buy the Bible individually before the 31st to take advantage of the special pricing.

I love my TLSB.

Jeremy

[Matt Staneck]

Don't know how I missed this gem of an article!  Here are some excerpts:

"Paul's letter to the Philippians was addressed to urban Christians. A review of Philippi's history shows the close connection between early Christianity and the urban setting. It also affirms that the Church of today dare not neglect the city."

"...Urban ministry is more important than ever before. It is tempting for churches to give up on city ministries, where the work can be frustrating and even dangerous. The rewards can seem minimal, especially in terms of financial income form inner-city churches...Paul and the early Christians did not avoid the cities...Today's churches need to meet the challenges of city work...Perhaps as never before amid the concrete, brick, and steel of urban life, we are faced with a wide-open field ripe for the harvest!"

DYNAMITE.  Much appreciated.  This article comes fromt page 2033 in Paul's letter to the Philippians.  Some cool background on the city of Philippi as well.  Great read.

M. Staneck

[EarlOfOrmond]

Living as I do in the Detroit area, I can say that the inner city definitely needs ministry.

I'm not sure how many of you have been to the Motor City in recent years (not many people go there without another reason to be there), but the city has an overarching feeling of sadness and hopelessness.  The problems of the auto industry are well-known, but they have a very corrupt city administration, a notorious crime rate (at one time it was the murder capital of the United States), burnt-out abandoned houses...it looks like something out of a "Terminator" movie.

Go out into the suburbs and bedroom communities, and things progressively get a bit better.  Go across the border to Windsor, Ontario and it's not just the fact that you're in another country; it's like a different world, even though the two cities are separated by a little over a mile of water.

I just did a quick check of the major Lutheran church web sites and unfortunately the Lutheran presence is not very large in Detroit (I'm not counting suburbs):

LCMS: 21 congregations
ELCA: 15 congregations
WELS: 3 congregations
ELS: no congregations

39 congregations, in a city of 912,062 (and dropping)...and I'm not sure how active those congregations are.

Of course, there are other places just as much in need of Law and Gospel as the D.

[Matt Staneck]

Thanks for the info regarding Detroit.  I have ran into several students on campus who really want to be involved in urban ministry.  It is not a little number, I am hoping this desire for urban ministry in them is nurtured and continues to manifest during their time here at CSL.  Getting that Gospel out to these people living with the visibly extreme effects that a sinful world brings is of utmost importance.  As it is everywhere of course!

M. Staneck

[George Erdner]

And if someone believes that each of the plagues was caused by God causing some natural phenomenon to occur, perhaps in larger quantities than usual….   I thought I was taught in the olden days that the Nile was turned into blood.  Loveliness of commentaries again.  Interesting.  Is it because God couldn’t do such a thing or just that so much blood is a blood bank unthinkable or maybe that it is unnecessary when you have algae standing by seasonally… but then the moon doesn’t have any water to turn reddish (at least not yet discovered) and what of other red presences or transubstantiations?   A holy hmmmm, as I call them.  Harvey Mozolak

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?

[ghp]

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?

Well, for one, the Bible uses the words "blood," "frogs," & "locusts." Why would we believe the plain, simple meaning of the latter two, but not the first one? The "ancients" (Moses, in this case) were inspired to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write. When we start to try and interpret or nuance the plain & simple meanings, then we (subtly or not) shift the seat of final authority from Scripture to *us* and our interpretative/critical powers. That, then, introduces doubt, however subtly, into the equation. And doubt in this arena is bad, bad, juju...

[George Erdner]

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?

Well, for one, the Bible uses the words "blood," "frogs," & "locusts." Why would we believe the plain, simple meaning of the latter two, but not the first one? The "ancients" (Moses, in this case) were inspired to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write. When we start to try and interpret or nuance the plain & simple meanings, then we (subtly or not) shift the seat of final authority from Scripture to *us* and our interpretative/critical powers. That, then, introduces doubt, however subtly, into the equation. And doubt in this arena is bad, bad, juju...

Speaking only for myself, I find that having to accept something that strikes me as clearly and obviously an example of ancient misunderstandings of the difference between actual blood, which is water with hemoglobin dissolved in it, and water that looks like blood because it has red algae in it that looks like hemoglobin as actually being blood makes having faith more difficult, if not impossible. I have no trouble reconciling that the Holy Spirit had Moses write what he and the people who were around at the time would understand in the context of their knowledge of the universe at the time.

I've seen the photographs of earth taken from outer space. I could no more accept as totally literal the requirement that I have to believe that the red tide God used as a plague on the Egyptians was actually mass quantities of Type A than I could accept that I had to believe that the sun revolved around the earth. If I have to suspend my disbelief over obvious metaphors, then that turns the real miracles, like the Resurrection, into the same sort of mythic fables as believing that the red tide was actually blood, or that the parting of the Sea of Reeds wasn't the result of a tsunami that God caused to happen at exactly the right time and place.

[Dave Benke]

Conversation.  Catechetically, we use the Small Catechism and Explanation from CPH for our kids.  Fine.  They're little folks at First Communion time, 8 to 12, but in Confirmation often in HS. 

Adults, however, come with such a varied background in Christianity and Bible as well as educationally that it's not possible to use a mega-tool like LSB.  TMI.  Way TMI.

So we are using a very easy to read New Testament - Good News, with a read-through and then theological commentary.   And - the ABS has versions that lead to the theological components of the NT with underlining and directives.  Kind of cool, especially since yesterday the passage on the lead-down list was Romans 3. 

My Anklage is that Lutheran stuff seems in general to be designed class-wise for the educated, and therefore elitist.  The Readers' Edition BOC is, to me an effort to address that in terms of the confessions.  Whatever one thinks of the scholarship and ideological positions taken in the book itself, the effort in my opinion is needed. 

Same would apply in terms of Bibles.  Now - a couple years from now the folks in the Adult Instruction units I'm teaching will hopefully be placed to read the information in LSB, so I may present them with one as they make their affirmation of faith.  But on the way to that day, I'm using ABS materials.

Dave Benke

[Brian Stoffregen]

Adults, however, come with such a varied background in Christianity and Bible as well as educationally that it's not possible to use a mega-tool like LSB.  TMI.  Way TMI.

What do you think of The Learning Bible especially with the CEV translation? It seems, like much of the American Bible Society stuff, to be geared towards those who are biblically illiterate.

[luthersterotypicus]

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?

Well, for one, the Bible uses the words "blood," "frogs," & "locusts." Why would we believe the plain, simple meaning of the latter two, but not the first one? The "ancients" (Moses, in this case) were inspired to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write. When we start to try and interpret or nuance the plain & simple meanings, then we (subtly or not) shift the seat of final authority from Scripture to *us* and our interpretative/critical powers. That, then, introduces doubt, however subtly, into the equation. And doubt in this arena is bad, bad, juju...

Speaking only for myself, I find that having to accept something that strikes me as clearly and obviously an example of ancient misunderstandings of the difference between actual blood, which is water with hemoglobin dissolved in it, and water that looks like blood because it has red algae in it that looks like hemoglobin as actually being blood makes having faith more difficult, if not impossible. I have no trouble reconciling that the Holy Spirit had Moses write what he and the people who were around at the time would understand in the context of their knowledge of the universe at the time.

I've seen the photographs of earth taken from outer space. I could no more accept as totally literal the requirement that I have to believe that the red tide God used as a plague on the Egyptians was actually mass quantities of Type A than I could accept that I had to believe that the sun revolved around the earth. If I have to suspend my disbelief over obvious metaphors, then that turns the real miracles, like the Resurrection, into the same sort of mythic fables as believing that the red tide was actually blood, or that the parting of the Sea of Reeds wasn't the result of a tsunami that God caused to happen at exactly the right time and place.

This is surprising to me. After one passes through the Great Book of Genesis and has been through Creation, Flood, Noah, repopulation of the earth, and other encounters dealing with the devil, original sin, the cross, etc., etc., either the person has long abandoned the hopelessness of handling this or is willing to see the rest of the Book as more than just possible but, it is, what it is, including the blood in Ex. 4. That really is minor when comparing it to the great mountain ranges of faith it took to get to that point. The real-real-metaphor-real-real-metaphor train is a hard one for me to grasp, I don't care how much space you've seen.

If you are believing it because it makes sense to ya, ya really ain't BELIEVIN' it then, ar ya?

[peter_speckhard]

Ex. 7:17 is God telling Moses what to say to Pharoah. God tells Moses to say--  "Thus says the LORD, 'By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water is in the Nile, and it shall turn into blood.'"

So it isn't only a matter of what happened in vs. 20. To say that the Nile didn't turn to blood also affects our view of God's declaration of what would happen.

[Harvey_Mozolak]

yes. interesting, Peter, maybe more than interesting.  I can't resist asking if the words of God are ever in red in the OT?  But aside from that stupid remark on my part, you do with seriousness raise the bar on the issue.    Harvey Mozolak

[Michael Slusser]

Ex. 7:17 is God telling Moses what to say to Pharoah. God tells Moses to say--  "Thus says the LORD, 'By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water is in the Nile, and it shall turn into blood.'"

So it isn't only a matter of what happened in vs. 20. To say that the Nile didn't turn to blood also affects our view of God's declaration of what would happen.

Not forgetting that "the magicians of Egypt did the same by their magical arts" in vs. 22.

Peace,
Michael

[luthersterotypicus]

v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.