Author Topic: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC  (Read 8031 times)

James_Gale

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The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« on: February 11, 2009, 12:23:41 AM »
The following is a report by the American Anglican Council regarding The Episcopal Church:  http://www.americananglican.org/assets/Publications/Primates-Report-Final.pdf.

The report concludes that TEC's leaders have committed a number of heresies.

Assuming that the report is factually accurate, what should the ELCA be doing or saying about its full communion relationship with TEC?

Charles_Austin

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2009, 07:31:18 AM »
Our agreements say that we should be in regular contact with our ecumenical partners and in discussion for mutual understanding and correction with necessary. I believe our office of ecumenical affairs could tell you more about how this proceeds.
We would probably not take at face value the report from a group that has or is in the process of leaving the Episcopal Church.
I have said freqeuntly on this forum that those who believe the Episcopal Church has "strayed" since our agreement was made should take the complaints to the ELCA's office of ecumenical affairs, propose memorials at synod assemblies and try to get the matter before the ELCA Church-wide Assembly.
I heartily support such efforts.

Dadoo

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 07:58:26 AM »
The following is a report by the American Anglican Council regarding The Episcopal Church:  http://www.americananglican.org/assets/Publications/Primates-Report-Final.pdf.

The report concludes that TEC's leaders have committed a number of heresies.

Assuming that the report is factually accurate, what should the ELCA be doing or saying about its full communion relationship with TEC?

Maybe we, ELCA, could send them one of our conflict resolution teams?  Seems like they need it.  At least we could offer it.
Peter Kruse

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Jay

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 10:54:43 AM »
On the one hand, I still find our full communion agreements with the Reformed traditions to be more problematic on many levels (basic incompatibility with Eucharistic theology, and as bad as some TEC leader's statements are, I'm sure you find can find worse from UCC leaders).  Our impending full communion agreement with the UMC has the same problems.  So, I would have a big problem with singling out TEC for some sort of action and doing nothing about our agreements with the Reformed and possible agreement with the UMC.

On the other, I am saddened by what is in that report.  TEC remains de jure orthodox but is becoming de facto unitarian.  If future TEC leaders continue to deny basic Christological assumptions that are the bedrock of the Christian faith, then we may have no choice but to act. 

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 02:28:27 PM »
TEC remains de jure orthodox but is becoming de facto unitarian. 

I opposed CCM on the grounds that neither the ELCA nor the ECUSA (now TEC) actually believed or practiced the faith confessed in CCM.

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Richard Johnson

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 02:43:14 PM »

Maybe we, ELCA, could send them one of our conflict resolution teams?  Seems like they need it.  At least we could offer it.

Oh yeah, that would help.  :P
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 02:44:36 PM »

Maybe we, ELCA, could send them one of our conflict resolution teams?  Seems like they need it.  At least we could offer it.

Oh yeah, that would help.  :P
Sure it would. If they are gone helping "them," they aren't trying to help "us".
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James_Gale

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 02:51:07 PM »
Our agreements say that we should be in regular contact with our ecumenical partners and in discussion for mutual understanding and correction with necessary. I believe our office of ecumenical affairs could tell you more about how this proceeds.
We would probably not take at face value the report from a group that has or is in the process of leaving the Episcopal Church.
I have said freqeuntly on this forum that those who believe the Episcopal Church has "strayed" since our agreement was made should take the complaints to the ELCA's office of ecumenical affairs, propose memorials at synod assemblies and try to get the matter before the ELCA Church-wide Assembly.
I heartily support such efforts.

Pr. Austin --

Do you have any opinion regarding whether the "Episcopal Church has 'strayed' since our agreement was made"?  If so, what is that opinion?

Thanks.

Jim Gale

Jay

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 02:54:11 PM »
Despite my apprehension about the future of TEC that I mentioned above, I still went to the local TEC church today for their midweek service to receive the body and blood of Christ, and worshiped with a community of fellow members of the Body of Christ.  I will not give up on them (or us) that easily.  

Charles_Austin

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 03:01:38 PM »
Jim Gale asks:
Do you have any opinion regarding whether the "Episcopal Church has 'strayed' since our agreement was made"?  If so, what is that opinion?

I comment:
No, I have no opinion other than to note that the "issues" which seem to bother most people, e.g. ordination for non-celibate gays and lesbians, the "presence" (if at a distance and retired) of Bishop John Spong existed when we entered into the fellowship agreement.

Paul L. Knudson

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 05:22:08 PM »
Thanks, James, for making the report more accessible.  I didn't know how to do that.

Charles keeps asking for those of us who wish to question the ongoing nature of our ecumenical agreement to take the appropriate steps to make that possible.  That can be done.  I for one would simply be encouraged if some group of bishops or theologians would publicly acknowledge the problem of blatant heresy in TEC.  Yes, matters are probably worse in the UCC, but in the matter of TEC I look for our leaders to speak up.  Is it always necessary for opposition to come from the grassroots?

Charles_Austin

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 05:26:22 PM »
Paul Knudson writes:
Is it always necessary for opposition to come from the grassroots?

I respond:
No. But in another thread, we were talking about whether the leadership is in touch with the grassroots. So if you don't see what you want coming from the bishops, why wouldn't you want to raise it on another level?
BTW, since theological discussions are like diplomatic ones, it would probably not be a good idea to say: "Resolved: that we look at the problem of blatant heresy in The Episcopal Church."  ;D
But I would gladly be a signer to a motion asking that we get a report on our relations with the Episcopal Church and consider whether to continue those relations or not.

anonymous

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 05:53:16 PM »
That motion would be one of those sand castles you like to build?

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 06:49:20 PM »
Jim Gale asks:
Do you have any opinion regarding whether the "Episcopal Church has 'strayed' since our agreement was made"?  If so, what is that opinion?

I comment:
No, I have no opinion other than to note that the "issues" which seem to bother most people, e.g. ordination for non-celibate gays and lesbians, the "presence" (if at a distance and retired) of Bishop John Spong existed when we entered into the fellowship agreement.

So, you're saying that they strayed before the agreement, but we went ahead and made the agreement anyway.

I'm reminded of the song "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" where a young swain is so eager to consummate a relationship that he swears he will "love her till the end of time". And soon, he is "praying for the end of time to hurry up and arrive". It's far too easy to get caught up in the euphoria of achieving some goal that unfortunate compromises get made. Human beings make mistakes. The majority of the fallible human beings in the ELCA who agreed to the CCM made a mistake. What might not have been clear to them at the time is certainly clear now with 20/20 hindsight.

By all means, it's important to get resolutions made and passed at Synod assemblies and at the CWA. In the real world (which, amazingly enough, is where we currently live) getting such things to happen starts with a grassroots groundswell of opinion. One of the preliminary actions that leads to those resolutions and memorials is for members of the ELCA to talk to each other in places like this to encourage everyone to take up the cause of repealing the CCM.
 

Thomas Byers

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Re: The Full Communion Relationship Between the ELCA and TEC
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 07:43:21 PM »
People who live in glass houses etc.  tb