Miscellaneous Questions

[ptmccain]

If memory serves, Zwingli and Calvin both very much wanted to get the "no graven images" phrase into its own "stand alone" commandment in order to justify their iconoclastic tedency in re. to any visual depiction of our Lord, or any aspect of the faith. Ironically, the greatest users of icons, the Eastern Church, also numbers the commandments to make "no graven images" its own separate commandment. To this day, this legacy results in Presbyterian and other Reformed churches looking cold and sterile on the inside. Makes me shiver each time I go into one of them. Of course, images like this, make a conservative Calvinist feel quite uneasy: http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cranachinweimar/

[Darrell Wacker]

I've encountered a few stern medieval altar guilds in this day and time....

The greatest challenge I ever faced in a church was when I was appointed head of the Worship and Music committee and came up against the well entrenched church ladies. Their collective attitude was best described by one of them who refused nomination to the Board every year who said "I was born in this church, baptised in this church, and married in this church. This is my church. You've only been a member here for a few years, so you aren't going to tell us how to do things." This was a response to my suggestion that since we had a large inventory of albs that we used to use a choir robes before we replaced them with Geneva style choir robes, we should let the lay lectors have the option of wearing an alb with no stole when they read the lessons. This was common practice in many ELCA churches, and I polled all of the lectors in advance, and most of them were very enthusiastic about the idea.

I also used to serve on the Worship committee at a former congregation.  However, over time, I have become convinced that these committees are not healthy.  First, I think it is primarily the Pastor's responsibility to plan Worship, to include hymn selection to go with the appointed readings of the day, in consultation with the organist/choir director.  I also think the Pastor should be making sure that choir selections meet the appropriate doctrinal standards for incorporation in the Divine Service. 

I have concerns when the Worship committee usurps the authority of the Pastor in this regard, or at least thinks it has that ability.  This area is one of the most important, visible roles of the Pastor, and one that should not have a committee that has a lot of sway over it.

[Richard Johnson]

I've encountered a few stern medieval altar guilds in this day and time....

The greatest challenge I ever faced in a church was when I was appointed head of the Worship and Music committee and came up against the well entrenched church ladies. Their collective attitude was best described by one of them who refused nomination to the Board every year who said "I was born in this church, baptised in this church, and married in this church. This is my church. You've only been a member here for a few years, so you aren't going to tell us how to do things." This was a response to my suggestion that since we had a large inventory of albs that we used to use a choir robes before we replaced them with Geneva style choir robes, we should let the lay lectors have the option of wearing an alb with no stole when they read the lessons. This was common practice in many ELCA churches, and I polled all of the lectors in advance, and most of them were very enthusiastic about the idea.

I also used to serve on the Worship committee at a former congregation.  However, over time, I have become convinced that these committees are not healthy.  First, I think it is primarily the Pastor's responsibility to plan Worship, to include hymn selection to go with the appointed readings of the day, in consultation with the organist/choir director.  I also think the Pastor should be making sure that choir selections meet the appropriate doctrinal standards for incorporation in the Divine Service. 

I have concerns when the Worship committee usurps the authority of the Pastor in this regard, or at least thinks it has that ability.  This area is one of the most important, visible roles of the Pastor, and one that should not have a committee that has a lot of sway over it.

I agree. We have an active worship committee, but it does not deal with the nitty gritty decisions about individual sermons; more larger questions, and generally not in a directive way but more a sounding board for me as pastor.

[Lutheran_Lay_Leader]

I also used to serve on the Worship committee at a former congregation.  However, over time, I have become convinced that these committees are not healthy.  First, I think it is primarily the Pastor's responsibility to plan Worship, to include hymn selection to go with the appointed readings of the day, in consultation with the organist/choir director.  I also think the Pastor should be making sure that choir selections meet the appropriate doctrinal standards for incorporation in the Divine Service. 

I have concerns when the Worship committee usurps the authority of the Pastor in this regard, or at least thinks it has that ability.  This area is one of the most important, visible roles of the Pastor, and one that should not have a committee that has a lot of sway over it.

I've never heard of a Worship & Music Committee meddling in the content of the Pastor's sermons, or in selecting the individual hymns. Every one I've ever known of was basically the Altar Guild, responsible for seeing to it that all paraments were properly cared for, the ones with the correct color were used each Sunday, that the flowers for the Altar were ordered and paid for, plus bookkeeping on memorial donations for flowers, and issues like that. When the choir director needed sheet music, it was the responsibility of the Worship & Music committee to acquire what was needed. The Worship & Music committee was responsible for seeing that the pianos were kept in tune, and the organ and PA system maintained in good repair. They also made sure that there was always an adequate supply of appropriate wine and wafers for Communion. They were in charge of making sure that the choir and acolyte robes were cleaned and pressed as needed. If the pastor were to announce that he wanted a particular program for Wednesday evenings in Lent, it was the Worship & Music committee's responsibility to make it happen as he wanted it to happen.

The committee I mentioned earlier did an outstanding job of carrying out their ministry. The functioned like a well-oiled machine, taking care of all the details that needed to be taken care of. They simply didn't want anyone suggesting that they do anything within the scope of their duties the least bit different from the way that they always did it.

[racin_jason]

For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?

3? 5? 0?

[Charles_Austin]

It depends upon my conversations with the visitors.

[pr dtp]

For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?

3? 5? 0?

Depends, but if they ask for an offering envelope, or put a large check in (I don't know the amount, but the Fin. Secretary would let me know) there's something up...

[Charles_Austin]

Yes, and then the pastor should talk with the people first; and have them contact the pastor where they are members. Then the two pastors should talk. There are valid reasons for shifting congregations; but it should not be done lightly.
Example: a family joined the church where I was the pastor because we had weekly communion and their other church had just chosen not to do so. Example: A family shifted congregations because they were bringing an elderly parent to church and the "new" church was more handicapped accessible.

[Mel Harris]

For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?

3? 5? 0?

More times than not, over the years, I have not known if a guest at our services was a member of another congregation, and if so of what congregation.  If any guest at our services has filled out an "I will commune" card and indicated their home congregation, I have had a notice that they communed with us sent to their home congregation (Lutheran or not).  Usually, when anyone that I knew was a member of a neighboring congregation (again, Lutheran or not) has been more than an occasional guest at the congregation where was the pastor, and I have been acquainted with their pastor, I have spoken to their pastor about this.  The exceptions to this, that I can remember, were the husbands or wives of members of the congregation where I was the pastor.

Mel Harris

[Scott5]

For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?

3? 5? 0?

More times than not, over the years, I have not known if a guest at our services was a member of another congregation, and if so of what congregation.  If any guest at our services has filled out an "I will commune" card and indicated their home congregation, I have had a notice that they communed with us sent to their home congregation (Lutheran or not).  Usually, when anyone that I knew was a member of a neighboring congregation (again, Lutheran or not) has been more than an occasional guest at the congregation where was the pastor, and I have been acquainted with their pastor, I have spoken to their pastor about this.  The exceptions to this, that I can remember, were the husbands or wives of members of the congregation where I was the pastor.

Mel Harris

Hi Mel.  Haven't heard from you in a while.

[racin_jason]

It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors. 

Somehow the decision has fallen on my lap to determine what token gift we give our seniors. Mrs. Racin' is too pregnant to help me out this time, so naturally I am turning to this forum for Lutheran answers to Lutheran challenges. 

How does your congregation recognize your high school graduates and what gift might you give them?

[Brian Stoffregen]

It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors. 

Somehow the decision has fallen on my lap to determine what token gift we give our seniors. Mrs. Racin' is too pregnant to help me out this time, so naturally I am turning to this forum for Lutheran answers to Lutheran challenges. 

How does your congregation recognize your high school graduates and what gift might you give them?

I just discovered (because there were no graduates last year) that we give a quilt to the high school graduates made by our Sew Much Fun group. The date that was set for "graduation Sunday" is also Pentecost. I will be emphasizing the Holy Spirit more than the graduates. Come to think of it, the idea of "Comforter" could work for the Spirit and the quilt!

[edoughty]

It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors. 

Somehow the decision has fallen on my lap to determine what token gift we give our seniors. Mrs. Racin' is too pregnant to help me out this time, so naturally I am turning to this forum for Lutheran answers to Lutheran challenges. 

How does your congregation recognize your high school graduates and what gift might you give them?

I don't have a bulletin in front of me but I'll give a rough outline.

At our church there's a part of the service, led from the baptismal font where Pastor Mary gives graduates a blessing -- something along the lines of "Your work and your rest are both in God.  Remember the promises made to you in baptism by God; Will you strive to live out the promises you made in your Affirmation of Baptism?"  They all say "I will, with God's help"; then Mary turns to the congregation and says, "Your work and your rest are both in God.  Remember the promises made to you in baptism by God.  Will you, by prayer and action, support these graduates as they go on to college (etc etc)?"  The congregation responds that they will, by God's help.

Then we give graduates a quilt that church members have made for them, and tell them that if they are ever feeling lonely or homesick or cold they can wrap themselves up in the quilt from our congregation and remember that we all are supporting and praying for them.

Erik

[Iowegian]

It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors. 
...

Then we give graduates a quilt that church members have made for them, and tell them that if they are ever feeling lonely or homesick or cold they can wrap themselves up in the quilt from our congregation and remember that we all are supporting and praying for them.
...

If you go with the quilt advice, you better have your quilting group start putting in the overtime.   

[edoughty]

It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors. 
...

Then we give graduates a quilt that church members have made for them, and tell them that if they are ever feeling lonely or homesick or cold they can wrap themselves up in the quilt from our congregation and remember that we all are supporting and praying for them.
...

If you go with the quilt advice, you better have your quilting group start putting in the overtime.   

Heh.  Well, we don't have a ton of sr. high kids each year, we have a fair number of quilters, and the quilters have all year (or, really, 4 years) to work on the quilts.  So it works.